Bid 7NT?

[jdonn]

This one came up yesterday. Anyone have a good auction, or is it totally unrealistic to get there? So far everything given to me can't distinguish between this hand, and one where either player has the minors reversed and the grand is on a hook.

 

[hv=n=sakqxxxhjxxdkqckx&s=sjxxhaqtxxdajxxca]133|200|[/hv]

 

North deals, no interference.

[joshs]

Nope. This hand is too hard except playing Ultimate club. Ok if you opened 1S and relayed with the south hand you might get there.

 

Personally, after 1S-2H-3H-3S anything I play double fit keycard, so I will not come close to getting to 7N (all roads lead to 6N).

 

here is my best attempt to get there:

1S-2H(GF)-2S(hearts can wait)-3S-4C(serious slam try)-4D-4H(barely good enough for the last train)-5C-5D-5H-5S-5N(delayed rkc)-6S-?

 

Opener has shown AKQxx[x] ?? K? K?

 

With AKQxxx K? K? K? opener would have bid rkc over 4D. A stiff diamond and the heart K is also not consistant with only 4H and the 5S signoff.

 

For the hand to be good enough for both a serious slam try, and a second try it would have to be AKQxxx xx[x] K?? K?? but would require another card so the likely hands are:

AKQxxx xx KQx Kx

AKQxxx xx Kx KQx

But opposite the second hand you have only 12 sure tricks.

 

So you will have to guess...

 

Note: while 2S didn't show 6 cards, 2S then a later strong action shows a 6 card suit.

[Blofeld]

If you luckily have the right set of gadgets such that North can cue diamonds twice, it might be doable. Here serious rather than frivolous 3N would happen to work better, for example, as north starts cueing diamonds immediately. But if we avoid the heart raise (which would kill it for the same reason Josh has), we might get:

1♠ : 2♥

2♠ : 3♠

4♣ : 4♦

4♠ : 5♣

5♦ : 5♥

6♦ : 7NT

 

where 5♣ is turbo-style, showing an odd number of keycards, and 6♦ promises the trump queen. But I suppose opener's hand might still be:

AKQxxx

Jxx

KQx

K

[jdonn]

I could only think of one that I thought might do it, without either of the unusual keycard agreements of the previous posts (but otherwise along similar lines)

 

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 3♠

4♣ (serious) or 3NT (serious) whichever it is, 4NT

5♠ 5NT

6♣ 6♦

 

Now what do opener's bids mean? I think they mean the following:

6♥: Heart king

6♠: Neither other king

6NT: I have no idea, maybe no other kings but lots of extra slower values.

7♣: Club queen, neither other king, enough values/tricks to have always intended on bidding the grand.

7♦: Since I think you would just bid 7♠ now with the diamond king and nothing else to show, I believe this should show the KQ.

 

But responder with the 6♦ bid is taking a real chance of reaching a grand with, say, opener's minors reversed. Then opener might not even have the heart jack, and the grand is really bad. I still think without either relays, or other very strange agreements, it may be too tough.

[Blofeld]

If you want more standard keycard agreements, how about making the auction a bit longer than your suggestion:

1♠ : 2♥

2♠ : 3♠

3NT (serious) : 4♣

4♦ : 4NT

5♠ : 5NT

6♣ : 6♦

(doesn't work playing frivolous 3NT)

Now opener has already shown a diamond control, should he be pushing to grand with just the king? I might expect 6NT now to show the diamond king. But not really sure.

[jdonn]

If you want more standard keycard agreements, how about making the auction a bit longer than your suggestion:

1♠ : 2♥

2♠ : 3♠

3NT (serious) : 4♣

4♦ : 4NT

5♠ : 5NT

6♣ : 6♦

(doesn't work playing frivolous 3NT)

Now opener has already shown a diamond control, should he be pushing to grand with just the king? I might expect 6NT now to show the diamond king. But not really sure.

It's not a bad suggestion. I still think 6♦ asks for the king only, no matter how you want to show it. If responder has AQx, the king is worth two more tricks than a singleton.

[whereagles]

Since I'd open 2♣ on the North hand, it would be difficult to convince South NOT to bid the grand :P

[Blofeld]

Since I'd open 2♣ on the North hand, it would be difficult to convince South NOT to bid the grand :P

We'd like a method that bids the grand here but stays out of it when you reverse opener's minors, though.

 

What does your 2♣ opening show?

[whereagles]

What does your 2♣ opening show?

If balanced: 23+

If 1-suited: 18+

If 2-suited: 21+

[mike777]

What does your 2♣ opening show?

If balanced: 23+

If 1-suited: 18+

If 2-suited: 21+

Ok I see 18- and a one suitedhand but no 18+ and a one suited hand.

[awm]

Playing fairly standard methods:

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

3NT(1) - 4♣

4♦ - 4♥(2)

5♣ - 5♦

6♦(3) - 7♠/7NT

 

(1) Serious 3NT

(2) Cuebid (not LTTC)

(3) 5NT here would be asking for top trump honors; bypassing it shows no concern about trump

quality. 6♦ cuebids the diamond queen. If opener instead had ♣KQ then responder would sign off in 6♠ or 6NT.

 

Playing non-serious 3NT instead:

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♦

4♠(1) - 5♣(2)

5♦ - 5♥

6♦(3) - 7♠

 

(1) No heart control. After "serious" slam try partner should not pass with ♥ control.

(2) Cuebid, guarantees ♥ control also

(3) Bypassing 5NT indicates no concern about trumps.

 

Alternately:

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♦

4♠(1) - 4NT(2)

5♠ - 6♦(3)

7♠

 

(1) No heart control.

(2) RKC

(3) Since opener is known to have no ♥ control, only chance at grand is diamond cards.

(4) Diamond KQ must be enough; king alone cannot be (else 5NT); queen alone bids 6♥.

 

This is also an easy hand playing Sam and my relay methods:

 

1♣(1) - 1♦(2)

1♠(3) - 1NT(4)

2♣(5) - 2♦(4)

3♦(6) - 3♥(4)

3♠(7) - 4♣(4)

4♥(8) - 4♠(4)

5♣(9) - 5♦(4)

5♥(10) - 7NT

 

(1) 16+ any

(2) Either 0-4 hcp, or a GF hand balanced or with 7+ AKQ points (A=3,K=2,Q=1)

(3) Natural 4+♠ could be canape, forcing one round.

(4) GF relay

(5) ♠+♣ or just ♠

(6) 6322 or 7222

(7) 6322

(8) 11 AKQ points (A=3,K=2,Q=1)

(9) One or Three of ♠AKQ; 0 or 2 of ♥AKQ (must be ♠AKQ+no ♥ honor)

(10) Zero or two of ♦AKQ (must be ♦KQ + ♣K looking at south hand)

[jdonn]

Adam, it's an easy hand with any relay methods :P

 

Your auctions are definitely not bad, they are about the best I've seen. But in all cases, how do you get there when one of the spade honors is in the other hand? I'm not so sure that neither player is allowed to bypass 5NT unless they hold AKQ of trumps.

 

Also, does the 3♠ bid absolutely deny minor suit shortage (unless it's the ace as here)? If not, how does opener know some of responder's cuebids in the minors aren't shortage?

 

Still, the most impressive auctions yet.

 

EDIT: Another thought. Take your second auction. Wouldn't this actually be HARDER the way you are bidding if opener also had the club queen? He bids 6♣ instead of 6♦, and then....?

[hotShot]

What about:

 

1♠ - 2♥ (forcing) (5+♥)

2♠ - 3♦ (forcing) (3+♦)

3♥ (preference) - 3♠ (fit suit setting)

4♣ (cue) -4♦ (cue)

4♠ (no ♥ cue) - 5♣ (cue)

5♦ (cue) - 5♥ (cue)

6NT (1) - 7NT (2)

 

(1) Now North sees:

6♠, 3♦ 2♣ and a♥ playing NT

 

(2) J♠,J♦ and a Q♥ unshown grand has at least 50%

[awm]

It seems like responder could splinter after 2♠ to show three-card support with side shortness, so for the most part 3♠ would seem to deny shortage.

 

If we move one of the trump honors to responder the auction potentially changes a lot, because responder now holds the vast majority of the values. Something like:

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

4♣(1) - 4♦(2)

4♠(3) - 4NT(4)

5♣(5) - 5♦(6)

5NT(7) - 6♦(8)

7♠

 

(1) Non-serious courtesy cuebid (serious 3NT)

(2) Cuebid, guarantees extras

(3) No ♥ control

(4) 1430 keycard

(5) One keycard

(6) Ask for the ♠Q

(7) ♠Q + ♦K, no ♥K**

(8) Ask for ♦Q

 

** There are obviously many ways to play this. In principle it's possible to further optimize because of the denial of a heart control (5♥ showing ♥K+♠Q is silly since opener can't have heart king). However, my normal agreement is that 5♠ denies the queen and any other suit bid shows that suit king plus the queen, with 5NT used to replace the "highest" king to save space.

 

Playing non-serious 3NT with the same hands:

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

3NT(1) - 4♣

4♦ - 4NT(2)

5♣(3) - 5♦(4)

5NT(5) - 6♦(6)

7♠

 

(1) Non-serious 3NT

(2) 1430 RKC; with the majority of strength it makes sense to take control.

(3) One keycard

(4) Ask queen

(5) ♦K+♠Q no ♥K (skipped 5♥)

(6) Ask ♦Q

[jdonn]

I think your auctions are becoming too double-dummy on when to cuebid and when to bid keycard... it's pretty much impossible just by switching a queen from one hand to the other for a player to visualize which will work better.

[awm]

Well in these examples I gave the two players:

 

AQxxxx

Jxx

KQ

Kx

 

Kxx

AQTxx

AJxx

A

 

With responder holding this much strength an early keycard bid seems fairly reasonable. Once partner cuebids the diamond king, you pretty much know that you have chances at slam opposite as little as:

 

AQxxx

xxx

Kx

xxx

 

which isn't even an opening hand. Indeed, the primary concern about bidding slam is opener's trump honors (or lack thereof) and keycard is the easiest way to get the partnership to slam when opener has good trumps and an otherwise lousy hand.

[Fluffy]

I can see many starts that lead to 7, the problem is they are untrue: I will start 1♠-2♥-3♥, so it doesn't matter, I won't reach 7.

[Free]

North opens a strong 1♣ and relays...

1♣ - 1♠ (GF 4+♥)

1NT - 2♣ (4+♦)

2♦ - 3♦ (3-5-4-1)

3♥ - 4♥ (10 AKQ points)

4♠ - 5♦ (1/2 tophonours ♥ and ♦, 0/3 tophonours ♠)

5♥ - 5NT (2 ♥, 1♦)

6♣ - 6♥ (♠J, no ♥J)

6♠ - 7♣ (♦J)

7NT

 

We have just enough space. Without ♦J, partner will bid 6NT which opener can pass. If south didn't have ♠J we'd probably be too high :)