Kibitzing at crowded matches.

[melviss666]

Yes, of course U can hear lots of drivel at Vugraph matches from the BBO Commentators, but, that's expected, I suppose. I'm talking about kibitzing in the Main Club or at a team match when Hamman, Garozzo, etc are playing. So, there's the "in-crowd" of about 40 with about a dozen ringleaders. Blabbing incessantly, fawning, & cooing & gushing over one another with abandon. Of course I have to mark them black so I can enjoy the play & see the actual players' comments,lol. Sadly, the ringleaders include yellows & Vugraph commentators as well. Get a life! Ego problem?

So, I suggest a special Skybox for the "in-crowd". Their very own separate Kibitzing(?) Room where they & their minions can do what they do & their chat will not interfere with kibitzers. See definition & rules for kibitzer if U fail to understand this.

[jillybean]

Great idea or add an option 'ignore kibitzer chat'

[Elianna]

And don't forget the obligatory passing around of drinks that takes up much of the chat page.

 

Seriously, since I don't play a lot, this is definitely the number one way to be clubbed by me.

[rona_]

700+ kibs but the "' ïn crowd "insist on saying hi to each other and their sisters cousins and aunts? You just have to learn to live with it. They, for some reason think they have a right to annoy 660 kibs because they have this insatiable need to show off..The yellow is there to make sure the rest of us know the annoyers are his friends :) The one or two vugraph commentators that I have seen annoying kibs, must think they have earned the right to do so, so, enemy-list comes to mind. One word of advice. Do not even think of telling one of the forty to please private chat with their friends, instead of chatting to kibs. The abuse you get just isn't worth the effort, unless you are happy to spend the next half hour arguing with egomaniacs and twits, and taking screen shots to send to abuse :) :D Use the right-click option. It's easy :) Beats trying to teach people basic manners.

[bglover]

Gee, no personal agendas going on here....

 

It is so sad that some people would fight to abrogate the one right people in the free world cherish most of all-- the right to free speech and free expression. Literally tens of thousands of lives have been lost over the course of history so that free people can express themselves in an unfettered manner.

 

And, it's a given you can already control those people you personally find offensive by simply marking them enemy and never having to see their offending chat. But, that's not good enough for you. It's not enough you can control whose chat you can see... you have to censor everyone’s to ensure you are happy.

 

Well, allow me to assure you that you cannot ever control peoples' thoughts and ideas-- only suppress them. So the only solutions are to entirely or selectively suppress chat (perhaps at the table-host level) IN THE GALLERY ITSELF. Then you will create an entirely different and far more perverse situation-- and you STILL cannot be guaranteed those people who are allowed to speak won't say something you don't like.

 

Why? Because everyone has a different idea of what is "right" or "wrong' speech. But, you people would certainly be happy to repress all of us who talk so that you won't be offended... when you already have the ability to simply mute those whose comments you find offensive or silly or whatever. You’d prefer to impose mass censoring and make so many mad and create even more ill will?

 

BBO used to be about more than bridge-- it was about fun, too. Too bad as it's grown so has the percentage of stick-in-the-muds who make it more unpleasant all the time. Barely a day goes by where I don't get a nasty message or five-- often from strangers-- just for existing. I'm glad I save all my chat logs-- to protect myself against people like you all.

[Elianna]

Gee, no personal agendas going on here....

 

It is so sad that some people would fight to abrogate the one right people in the free world cherish most of all-- the right to free speech and free expression. Literally tens of thousands of lives have been lost over the course of history so that free people can express themselves in an unfettered manner.

 

And, it's a given you can already control those people you personally find offensive by simply marking them enemy and never having to see their offending chat. But, that's not good enough for you. It's not enough you can control whose chat you can see... you have to censor everyone’s to ensure you are happy.

 

Well, allow me to assure you that you cannot ever control peoples'  thoughts and ideas-- only suppress them. So the only solutions are to entirely or selectively suppress chat (perhaps at the table-host level) IN THE GALLERY ITSELF. Then you will create an entirely different and far more perverse situation-- and you STILL cannot be guaranteed those people who are allowed to speak won't say something you don't like.

 

Why? Because everyone has a different idea of what is "right" or "wrong' speech. But, you people would certainly be happy to repress all of us who talk so that you won't be offended... when you already have the ability to simply mute those whose comments you find offensive or silly or whatever. You’d prefer to impose mass censoring and make so many mad and create even more ill will?

 

BBO used to be about more than bridge-- it was about fun, too. Too bad as it's grown so has the percentage of stick-in-the-muds who make it more unpleasant all the time. Barely a day goes by where I don't get a nasty message or five-- often from strangers-- just for existing. I'm glad I save all my chat logs-- to protect myself against people like you all.

Well, when we express ourselves (using OUR rights to free speech), we're being oppressive? ok.

 

I don't see anyone advocating requiring people not to talk, I only see people asking not to be required to listen.

 

Sure, the U.S. may give you the right to free speech, but am I required to listen to it?

 

If you were sitting in a crowded movie theater, would you feel it's appropriate for four people to be sitting there, chatting loudly and obnoxiously, and not caring what the other audience members thought? I know that I would surely be mad. I think that our society has clearly accepted that there are certain places where "free speech" is not applicable, and some of us would like to at least decide for ourselves not to have to listen to it.

[bglover]

"I think that our society has clearly accepted that there are certain places where "free speech" is not applicable, and some of us would like to at least decide for ourselves not to have to listen to it."

 

If the kib gallery isn't a place for free speech-- and, I might add fun and friendship-- what is? That is the entirety of my point. Too bad you are apparently one of those sticks I referred to.

[aisha759]

There seems to be animosity between those who feel comfortable talking to kibbers and greeting them publicly, and those who would rather stay quiet, and/or listen to bridge comments.....

BBO is a friendly site, great socializing, and great bridge! I doubt anyone can deny that!

When we come to kibbitz a very special table, and find 40 friends (well im lucky if i find 3) we like to greet them publicly..imagine being at a party and saying hello to friends and whispering "hiiii" in their ears. :rolleyes:

I doubt anyone, except for the very few, talk rubbish or greets just to be the center of attention, or to show off, or to purposely disturb other kibbers... saying hello privately to someone who has greeted you publicly, to me, seems as if one is embarrassed to show you know this person, therefore you answer their greeting in private; and if one is embarrassed, then better not to greet at all IMHO.

As in real life, BBO deals with all sorts of characters and personalities... you have your extraverts and your intraverts... and there is nothing wrong with either... the important thing here, is not to disturb the players, and respect them.

I am not defending those whom you call the "in crowd", nor put down those who are the "out crowd"... anyway there is no such thing! How many smart, witty comments would be missed if kibbers needed to keep quiet at all times....

As for the inundation of greetings, so what? We play turneys daily, where players greet other players individually and wish them luck...... does that mean we avoid those turneys?

I'm losing track here! All I'm trying to say is whats the big deal? Is it illegal? Is it immoral? Is it disrespectful?

We can enjoy watching an expert bridge game, and have a good time...... its all about multi-tasking :) Just don't make comments behind my back when i play (not that i get 700+ kibbers)

Anyway, if its wrong, and there are too many complaints, im sure kibbers wont be allowed to talk, just like in vugraph...

Hi all :)

[aisha759]

The complaints are not about free speach! And this is not a political discussion!

Its about being with friends, saying hi, and making comments! In or out of place, doesnt matter... its about enjoying and having a good time.....

Having said that, I can understand how annoying it can be for some kibbitzers..... there is no solution, just get in with the "IN CROWD" :) If you cant beat them, join them, I did :P well i tried... they wont let me in :)

You people are just too serious :rolleyes:

aisha

[luke warm]

i only chat in those situations when i have something glib, interesting, or funny to say... that means i'm usually quiet :rolleyes:

 

usually, but not always

[aisha759]

Too bad Jimmy.... I bet you have more to say than most of us :rolleyes: but silence is golden :)

You charmincajunu

[mikeh]

I was amused to read this thread, especially as I suspect that I am part of the 'in crowd': altho I had not previously thought of 'it' or me as such :)

 

I am one of those who finds that merely watching bridge in silence is boring, no matter how good the bridge may be. There are few fascinating hands, interspersed with a larger number of dull hands, all usually played slowly. I enjoy the social side of kib chat, altho I agree that this can get overdone.

 

I enjoy, even more, an informed discussion of the hands being played. Personally, I like to throw out questions about alternatives to the table action to prompt discussion. On other occasions, I try to explain (as best as I can) what I think may be going on, because feedback I have received tells me that many kibs enjoy that sort of commentary, whether it be at a vugraph or an informal game.

 

If I annoy anyone, then I apologize... I apologize directly if that person complains to me, and I apologize here to those I have offended without knowing of it :rolleyes:

 

But on a couple of occasions, I have encountered criticism for my comments, offered to shut up, and been told by several kibs to ignore the complaint and to keep commenting... by kibs who are not part of the in crowd; who indeed are themselves silent.

 

As for the analogy to people talking loudly in a movie theatre, let me suggest you look for a better analogy.

 

How about those who complain about the content of a movie or a book or the music on a radio station? if you don't like what I say.... either engage me in debate or mark me as an enemy or close the chat altogether. I am NOT making you read my comments, nor is any other member of the 'in crowd'.. and you need not leave the table in order to avoid my comments.

 

In the meantime, so long as I get positive feedback, I will keep doing what I do....

[aisha759]

Well, there is the "in crowd" and the "elite crowd"..........

Its what you say, and when you say it :)

nite all ;)

[Elianna]

Look, I am not saying that people should stop talking. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have the option to turn off kibbitzer chat at a table FOR OURSELVES instead of turning off all chat (which seems to include private chat from friends). It's annoying to have to club 50+ people, especially because some of them are my friends in other situations, I just don't need to listen to their inanities.

 

if you don't like what I say.... either engage me in debate or mark me as an enemy or close the chat altogether. I am NOT making you read my comments, nor is any other member of the 'in crowd'.. and you need not leave the table in order to avoid my comments.

 

When there are 50+ people, it's WAY easier to ask for a way to turn off kibbitzer chat FOR OURSELVES.

 

What I don't get is why people are getting upset about this being advocated as an option.

 

Ok, here's a different analogy: You're at a friend's party, and there's someone there who talks loudly, to the whole room, thus preventing people from having quiet, private conversations. (Yes, this may not be your idea of a good party, but it's some people's.) If no one ever says that it's annoying, how would that person ever know? Maybe you think that they shouldn't care, or that the annoyed people should just leave the party. (Yes, on BBO you can ignore the person by clubbing them, but as I said, when there are TONS, it's easier asking for a method of having "special earplugs").

[awm]

No one is trying to restrict anyone's right to talk to their friends, or comment on the bridge at the table.

 

No one is attacking the volunteer effort of those who commentate on vugraph or expert tables in the main bridge club.

 

On the other hand, no matter how friendly or insightful your comments might be, there are some people who would prefer not to listen to them. This is simple realism. And especially in an environment with a chat window of limited size, where comments from one person or group can make it more difficult to read comments from another person or group, it's important that people who don't want to listen have the right to your comments not appearing on their screens.

 

It would be unfair to demand that people not talk, or restrict their ability to talk. On the other hand, forcing me to allow their chat to appear on my screen restricts my ability to talk to my friends. Forcing someone to listen to something is just as unfair as forcing someone to be silent, isn't it?

 

Of course BBO provides some utility for ignoring people you don't want to listen to. But the "enemies list" is a filter by person. What Elianna's suggesting is a "filter by environment;" something where she can eliminate chat at a very crowded table, unless it's chat from the players themselves or chat directed personally to her. I think this is a very reasonable suggestion, since trying to "filter by person" when there are 40-50 people talking is a lot of work, and creates issues if you're willing to talk to these people ordinarily (just not in the context of a crowded table where 40-50 other people are also speaking). Again, this does not prevent anyone from chatting or anyone from listening to their chat. It simply allows people who do not want to participate to avoid participating.

[luke warm]

there's absolutely nothing wrong with a way to ignore all kib chat... it would seem to be the best of both worlds

[Echognome]

I see no problem with there being an option. It is of course a tension between those wanting to be social, those wanting to engage in bridge commentary only, and those wanting to simply watch the bridge being played and comments by the players. It does not surprise me that there is tension between these groups.

 

I think this goes back to the earlier requests to make chat more flexible with multiple channels. I think it would be great if this could be done eventually. Of course, there is tension to resolve in the meantime.

 

I personally think it's an untenable problem. You are going to have an angry group no matter what you do. From what I've seen of most matches, the organiser has been involved in the chat or has not complained about the chat, I cannot imagine it would be desirable to squelch all social chat. I realize that certain people find it annoying and it is a matter of who suffers the greater inconvenience. Those that have to ignore individually or those that wouldn't be able to chat at all. Since those that are offended have the option of ignoring, it would seem that is the closest we can get for now for a happy medium. I can understand their requests to make their life easier and don't think anyone should be complaining about such a request. Perhaps a patch of 'ignore kibitzer chat' could be added on until the overhaul takes place. But given Fred and Uday's priorities of sticking with the current structure until they make the major change (and which I personally support), I don't believe we will have a solution for this until that happens.

 

In the meantime, we are simply going to have to do our best to get along. (Cue Reginald Denny)

[aisha759]

I dont disagree about having the option to close kibber chat in a crowded room.... but when you do that, dont you also end up filtering those comments you WOULD like to hear, about bridge... i.e. player systems, best line of play etc...? I think we would miss out on a lot of smart,witty, and informative comments...

The window does get overcrowded at times, but after a while, everyone gets tired, and I have even noticed, there is a sudden silence, except for commentaries....

But nothing wrong with Elianna's suggestion... I'm all for it... i might not use it....but its an advantage to have such an option. Just like the option to be invisible... which is wonderful during vugraph, as it gives you the chance to concentrate on a good game, and listen and learn from the great commentators :D

Maybe there is a happy medium until that option is available, for some of us (me included) not to inundate the window, and give others the opportunity to say what they have to....

I like the comparison of someone being loud at a party! I wouldnt leave, but for sure it would iritate me!

Maybe another option is to allow each kibber 2 comments :)) jokinnnnnnggg

Yessssss, lets all try to get along.... :)

[Badmonster]

Tangentially....

I don't mind the idle chatter. What I hate are the people who feel the need to demean and criticize the people they're watching. I mean if you're so wonderful how come you're not sitting in the seat of the world class play you're belittling and how come they have a star and you don't? Censorship is bad. Self censorhip is priceless.

 

Also, it's be nice if the conversation mostly centered around bridge, not our insurance rates or what have you.

[HedyG]

i have been holding back for a few days, but i think somebody should say it:

"blabbing, fawning,gushing,Ego problems, minions"..

wait there is worse to come!

"egomaniacs, twits"

talk about teaching basic manners!!!

who gives you the right to use language like this! is this the only way you know to express yourself?

most of us consider BBO as our bridgeclub. we go there to play, to kibbitz, but also we go there to meet our friends and be social as in any bridgeclub all over the world.

we laugh together, we cry together, we have birthday parties...

you dont? well, i am really sorry for you, because you are missing out on the best part of it all.

so what are the "egomaniacs" the "twits" and "minions" to do now? take screenshots and send them to abuse?

no thanks! we think that the BBO management has far more important things to do than to occupy itself with your personnal quarrels and wars.

yes a feature to switch off kib chat would be nice..maybe sometime in the future when the more important work on the program is done.

and yessssssss it would be nice if everybody would try to make an effort to get along!

that includes learning manners and stopping to insult everybody on the way.

BBO is great place and we love it: lets not ruin it with fights please. everything can and should be approached in a civilised way and i am sure we will all get a lot further much quicker.

[Walddk]

During vugraph broadcasts only scheduled commentators are able to talk to the room. That's how Fred coded the programme 5 or 6 years ago. Excellent job in my opinion, and I don't think he has any regrets today.

 

With this said, I think it's wrong to impose restrictions elsewhere on BBO. Table and tournament hosts have the option of barring spectators from talking to the room, but they are allowed to chat among themselves, and yes, a large number do take advantage of that option at crowded tables.

 

Although I would like to see more comments on bridge issues rather than the eternal greetings and "how is our aunt in Minnesota" stuff, I think it's fine that spectators can voice their opinions at all times. Sometimes they even have something meaningful to say.

 

A nice side effect is that when it comes to analysing a bridge hand, it is almost always easy to spot who we should not invite for vugraph commentary.

 

Do I mind if spectators have the option of turning off chat? Not at all, but I will understand if this is item number 115 on Fred's "to do list".

 

Roland

[melviss666]

I love to hear them squirm & make not so veiled threats when U hit them where they live. Insinuating that the non-incrowd should be reported to abuse, etc,lol, talking about twisting things around. I never, & don't think anyone else, ever supported censorship. I've been drug into non-bridge blab myself, one noticeable example, & my last time to blab at a crowded kib match so help me God, was when I answered a punkrock question(wasn't this an appropriate question for bridge kibitzers?) & lo & behold, kibitzer chat to the table was on & the players thought I had called them Blockheads(the answer to the kibitzer-posed question), lol.

I like my solution as well as jillybean2's, they are both superb, ie, either a separate room for the in-crowd, or, an option to turn off kibitzer chat. Those are the ONLY 2 suggestions I've seen, not censorship. In the meantime, there IS a difference between freedom of speech & license. And again, read definiton & rules for kibitzer over & over until it sinks in.

&, BTW, I ALWAYS allow kibs at my table & allow chat to table as well & I will not even think of joining a table where kibs aren't allowed or where they must get permission.

[matmat]

While we're at it, would it be possible to turn off chat coming from the table? This would be useful when watching players speaking in a foreign language while chatting with friends, for example?

[uday]

For now the most practical thing to do is right-click-mark-enemy whoever you wish while at the table. We might be able to add these options but they seem to be of limited interest.