Opening bid?

[mike777]

Opening bid is?

 

Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x

[hrothgar]

5♥

[inquiry]

Ok, Ok, 1♥. What else? (well, I would open it 3♣, seriously... but what that means and why I would do it isn't for a beginners thread.... )

[Finch]

1H, unless I'm playing Acol Twos, in which case 2H.

[hotShot]

Playing some sort of SAYC i would choose 2♣, with only 3 looser i think this calls for an almost game forcing opening. I should be able to show both ♥ and ♣.

Bidding can go something like that:

2♣ - 2♦

2♥ - something

n♣

After that partner should will know if we settle for 4/5♥, try a slam or penalty double opps.

[P_Marlowe]

1H, planning to bid clubs the

next round.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Blofeld]

1♥. If the auction is getting back to me at 4♠ I'll be very glad I bid this and not 2♣.

 

Afraid I think a 5♥ opening is too much of a guess, Richard. Sometimes partner holds the spades.

[jdonn]

I don't understand 5♥ either. How in the world does partner know what he is supposed to do, or which outside suit you have a loser in, or whether a stiff trump is good enough support for 6 or 7, or that his Qx of clubs is gold, or a million other things?

 

I once held a hand very much like this except 7-6, - AKxxxxx AKT98x -, and had a great success opening it 1♥ (and rebidding 2♦!). So 1♥ it is.

[hrothgar]

I don't understand 5♥ either. How in the world does partner know what he is supposed to do, or which outside suit you have a loser in, or whether a stiff trump is good enough support for 6 or 7, or that his Qx of clubs is gold, or a million other things?

Partner isn't suppose to know what to do

Partner is supposed to pass....

 

I like using a 5♥ opening as a fairly wide ranging preemptive opening.

I trot this out on hands where I have long hearts and a lot of shape.

I don't worry about the lack of science because I don't expect a controlled auction and prefer to get the hand off my chest ASAP.

[jdonn]

I don't understand 5♥ either. How in the world does partner know what he is supposed to do, or which outside suit you have a loser in, or whether a stiff trump is good enough support for 6 or 7, or that his Qx of clubs is gold, or a million other things?

Partner isn't suppose to know what to do

Partner is supposed to pass....

Now I'm just confused. Do I have to admit to partner after the hand that his opinion is of so little value that I intentionally remove him from auctions before he has made a bid? Or do I start the post mortem with 'since you never know what to do anyway...'

 

To show I'm not all disagreeable, you are a million percent correct in your post on Cavendish vugraph entitlement.

[Walddk]

1♥. I tend to open my longest suit.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

1♥

 

5♥, for me, asks partner to bid 6 with the A or K of ♥: sure, it is a rare bid, and I have never held the hand for the bid in 30+ years, but why on earth would one open this hand 5♥???? Bridge is not solitaire.

 

If the poster was seeking advice on whether this constitutes a 2♣ opening, then I refer him/her to the innumerable other threads on the topic.

 

It is, in my view, no coincidence, that the posters with the most successful real life records appear almost unanimous, whenever this issue arises, in opting for 1-level opening bids with powerful two and three suited hands.

[hrothgar]

It is, in my view, no coincidence, that the posters with the most successful real life records appear almost unanimous, whenever this issue arises, in opting for 1-level opening bids with powerful two and three suited hands.

Comment 1: I certainly agree that strong two and three suited hands should typically be opened at the 1 level. I certainly prefer this to opening 2C. However, we're dealing with a 7-5 hand. This hand will almost certainly play better in Hearts than in Clubs. I have very good idea regarding strain. I'm willing to take a gamble regarding level in order to maximize the pressure on the opponents.

 

Comment 2: As I have noted several times in the past, different people have very different styles regarding freak hands. Case in point: Stephen Burgess advocates all 7-4 hands should be opened at the game level. I'd certainly trade his record in competion for that of almost any member of this forum.

 

Comment 3: I don't think that a 5♥ opening that has never been used in 30 years can really be considered an effective part of one's arsenal. You note that "Bridge is not solitare". That same controlled auction that lets partner value his honors and Hearts also lets the opponent's clarify their holdings in Spades and Diamonds. Yes, the 5♥ is rolling the dice, however, I think that the odds are in my favor.

[luis]

I would open 4♣ (namyats) and take my chances of missing a slam vs them not finding the spades.

 

Luis

[jdonn]

I don't mind your concept of using 5♥ as a sort of unlikely freak preemptive opening, rather than the old fashioned A or K ask. But who preempts with AK of two different suits and their bid nearly made in hand?

[inquiry]

Comment 2:  As I have noted several times in the past, different people have very different styles regarding freak hands.  Case in point:  Stephen Burgess advocates all 7-4 hands should be opened at the game level.  I'd certainly trade his record in competion for that of almost any member of this forum.

Are you suggesting Stephen Burgess would open this hand 5♥? I would be willing to take some of that "action".

 

4♥ (at game) or 4♣ like Luis, ok, I could buy that... but 5♥?

[pclayton]

I think we've discussed the concept of opening hands like this with NAMYATS and pulling 4♥ to 5♣.

 

Augie Boehm had an article in the BW a few years ago about a similar idea."Science at the Freak Show" I think was the name of the article.

[hrothgar]

Burgess's rule applies to 7-4 hands (this is 7-5, increasing the chance that the hand could play in Diamonds)

 

As you note, I'd advocating open 5♥ which is a level higher.

 

In short, i have zero confidence that Burgess would advocate a 5♥ opening. When I posted my comment about Burgess I was simply responding to Mike's asserting that strong players favor 1 level openings and nice controlled auctions with storng 2 suited patterns.

[jdonn]

Burgess's rule applies to 7-4 hands (this is 7-5, increasing the chance that the hand could play in Diamonds)

 

As you note, I'd advocating open 5♥ which is a level higher.

 

In short, i have zero confidence that Burgess would advocate a 5♥ opening. When I posted my comment about Burgess I was simply responding to Mike's asserting that strong players favor 1 level openigns and nice controlled auctions with storng 2 suited patterns.

I don't think the concept is one of having a nice controlled auction. I think it is one of making sure both suits can be bid (relatively) conveniently, even in the face of potential heavy preemption.

[foo]

*checks to make sure... ...yep*

Folks, this is the _Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion_ area.

 

Namyats does not belong here. Neither does anyone's pet conventioal or preemptive way of bidding shapely hands that is not Standard.

 

Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x

Playing KISS SA or 2/1 GF or whatever; the call here is to open 1H

 

 

Possible Uncontested Auctions:

If it goes 1H-1S or 1N; then 3C ...which isn't perfect but should get you to Game.

 

If CHO 2/1's, you don't let the bidding stop until you've explored slam.

 

 

Possible Contested Auctions:

It doesn't matter. You are never letting the opponents play this board below slam and if They do compete to 6 you can decide whether tp X them or bid 6 yourself based on the previous auction.

No matter what, if They bid 7 then you are going to X Them.

 

 

 

Regardless of what the Bridge Gods deal you, always make a plan for all likely general directions the auction might take before you decide what to do.

[mikeh]

 

In short, i have zero confidence that Burgess would advocate a 5♥ opening.  When I posted my comment about Burgess I was simply responding to Mike's asserting that strong players favor 1 level openings and nice controlled auctions with storng 2 suited patterns.

A 7-4 can and should often be treated as a one-suiter. However, a strong 7-5, with a powerful second suit, is (in my view) clearly a 2-suiter. When you invoke Burgess and his 7-4 'rule', you are arguing apples and oranges.

 

As for the 'controlled' part of your post, I refer you to jdonn, with whose post I agree

[luis]

*checks to make sure... ...yep*

Folks, this is the _Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion_ area.

 

Namyats does not belong here. Neither does anyone's pet conventioal or preemptive way of bidding shapely hands that is not Standard.

 

Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x

Playing KISS SA or 2/1 GF or whatever; the call here is to open 1H

 

 

Possible Uncontested Auctions:

If it goes 1H-1S or 1N; then 3C ...which isn't perfect but should get you to Game.

 

If CHO 2/1's, you don't let the bidding stop until you've explored slam.

 

 

Possible Contested Auctions:

It doesn't matter. You are never letting the opponents play this board below slam and if They do compete to 6 you can decide whether tp X them or bid 6 yourself based on the previous auction.

No matter what, if They bid 7 then you are going to X Them.

 

 

 

Regardless of what the Bridge Gods deal you, always make a plan for all likely general directions the auction might take before you decide what to do.

I have to strongly disagree what with you say.

 

"This is the beginners and Intermediate Bridge discussion Namyats don't belong here"

 

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing, it just means they are still in their learning process and may not know as many things as experts or not have enough experience.

I hate it when somebody dismisses an idea because the target are beg/ints, they are capable enough to know what they can understand and what they can't, if this is too advanced they can bookmark it and ignore and read it a few months later. If they can understand it then why not let them read ? Who are you to decide what a B/I can understand and what they can't ?

 

Even world champions were B/I at one point in their bridge lives, what you know and what you CAN learn are completely different things.

 

No offense please but be careful when you say such a thing.

 

Luis

[Walddk]

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing

Of course they are not stupid, and foo didn't say that. He said that Namyats does not belong here, and I have to agree with him. One thing is to learn what 4♣ and 4♦ should show, another and more complex thing is to comprehend the subsequent auction if responder doesn't sign off in opener's suit.

 

How many partnerships have a clear agreement on what 4♦, 4♠ and 4NT show over 4♣, and how many have discussed what 4♥ and 4NT show over 4♦?

 

I have said this over and over again and I do not mind repeating it: In my opinion beginners and intermediates should concentrate on the basics, and when they master all that (very few do although they claim that they do), they can start looking further ahead. It's something about crawling before you walk, and not the other way around.

 

They can understand 1♥ and 2♣, but they are lost when you suggest 4♣ or 5♥ (so am I, by the way, as far as 5♥ is concerned).

 

Roland

[foo]

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing, it just means they are still in their learning process and may not know as many things as experts or not have enough experience.

Whoa! Please do not put words in my mouth or attribute attitudes to me that I have not expressed.

 

Conventions and "pet" ways of bidding hands in a non standard way are for solving specific problems BY AGREEMENT within in the context of a SPECIFIC partnership.

They are NOT things that a player can count on being in place when sitting down with a new partner of their level. Nor should they be.

 

I am a self-professed Mad Scientist and have been since I first started playing, so there is no way that I'm against using Theory and Gadgets.

 

However, it is unfair, unreasonable, and =unkind= to tell beginners and intermediates to add or use some non-standard convention or treatment whenever they come to us with a bidding problem!

 

=1st= we should tell them how best to solve the problem using Standard methods.

(Richard made a point on this in another thread that I think was well made and perhaps not as respected as it should have been. Unfortunately, he seems to have forgotten his own POV in this thread.)

 

=Then= and only then we should mention OPTIONAL pet conventions and treatments beyond Standard for handling a specific problem.

 

Otherwise, we are making it more difficult rather than less for newer players to get enough experience and bidding judgement to be able to play in most situations.

[inquiry]

I think mentioning naymats as one option is not going to destroy any beginners/intermediate view of the world. Any beginner reading this thread will see...

 

1) The majority think opening 1♥ with this hand is fine.

2) If playing acol 2♥ opening 2♥ might be an option

3) If playing naymats, opening 4♣ might be an option

4) Some bite the bullet and open 4♥ (huge underbid imho)

5) If running on the wild side at least one person will open 5♥

 

Even the 5♥ bid was worth seeing here, because it allowed the CORRECT meaning of 5♥ to be expressed (at least as far as beginners are concerned).. bid slam with A or K of hearts, bid grand with both.

 

So I will disagree with Roland and Foo. Talking about naymats in the context of a problem like this is fine, especially when the main stream position (open 1♥) has such overwelming support (yes even from me). Also note, I kept my pet convention out of this thread... it was hard, but I did it.