Your rebid is?

[hotShot]

Lets assume we let them play 3♠, how many tricks is this hand worth?

Not much! A ♠, a ♣ and with luck a♥ as LHO holds most of opps HCPand can have AQ♥.

So partner needs to bring 2-3 tricks to bring opps down, if he holds that 4-5♣ are possible. Opps are no vul, so playing is often the better option.

[foo]

Anyone for avoiding this problem by opening 1NT, btw?

You can count me in, at least :P

Are you seriously suggesting that one should be able to foresee this auction when one opens 1♥? Count me out.

 

Roland

♠KQ♥KJT95♦JT♣KQ94

 

This is a miserable collection of picture cards that unfortunately is too strong to not to open. This is a control poor (bad.) 5422 (bad. they often play 1-2 tricks more poorly than their HCP suggest.) 15 count. Given the likely wasted DJ (bad), this hand is really only 14 working HCP.

 

Opening a Standard 1N= 15-17 lies both about this hand's trick taking strength and its shape. Even opening it 1N= 14-16 has flaws on the same two fronts.

 

After 1H-(1S)-X-(3S); this hand gets even worse since the SQ is now effectively a Sx.

Now we likely only have 12 working HCP.

 

Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly. You have a minimum. Bid it like a minimum.

 

GOP's X is unlimited. The auction is not over.

Limit your hand so GOP has the best information you can give them to make the correct decision.

 

 

...and for those of you agonizing over the fact that GOP may be stuck if you pass:

Yes, sometimes preempts work. That is reality. Accept it like an adult.

OTOH, lying about your hand in order to "protect" against Them stealing the board is a good way to get bad scores on not just this board, but scores of others.

[whereagles]

Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly. You have a minimum. Bid it like a minimum.

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

[bid_em_up]

Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly.  You have a minimum.  Bid it like a minimum.

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

No more so than opening 1N :P

 

In the last f2f tourny I played, I had a pickup partner. About 3/4 of the way thru what was a really good session, pickup pard decided to open a 5-2-2-4 hand 1NT. Needless to say, 1N went -1, 2S makes 3 for a cold zero. The pickup player then says "I never open this kind of hand 1N", leaving me scratching my head wondering, "why the heck did you do it now then?" (paraphrased, of course, my actual thoughts are not postable!!)

[whereagles]

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

No more so than opening 1N :P

Why do you say that? Many people allow the 1NT opening to have 5-card majors. It's in no way masterminding.. unless, of course, if you require that 1NT cannot have a 5-card major, period.

[mcphee]

I would be more inclined to open 1N if I was white verus red for the pressure this places on the next hand. I do not consider this a good NT opening as lack of any real quality suits may find me facing discard problems on the run of thier suit. While I find that opening 1NT generally helps make the auction easier for me this hand looks like trouble.

 

This is a clear pass over 3S as much as Iwould like to bid C. If partner bids again double I can bid game with some comfort, or choose to play for penalties, think I would opt for 5C however.

[mikeh]

I am late to this thread, so what I have to say has already been said..

 

To me the choice is between pass and 4♣ and the only reason I might choose 4♣ is if I found myself tanking for too long over 3♠.... given that 3♠ was a jump, I suspect that I would be passing in tempo.

 

This is a useful hand for hand evaluation... and it is interesting to read the various posts.

 

Anyone who thinks this hand is still an extra-value opening has a great deal to learn, imo. No Aces, 5 hcp in a suit in which the holding will produce only 1 trick, with no hope of promoting cards in partner's hand, and no assurance of more than an 8 card fit.... this is NOT a good hand anymore.

 

As for those inclined to open 1N, that is the type of opening one makes when one does not respect partner. I frequently open 1N with a 5 card major, but not on an unbalanced hand... and this is 2524, not some 5332. We have NO rebid problem in the usual course: yes, we have a rebid problem now, because of the preemption, but how would 1N change that?

 

If we'd opened 1N, we would be playing some number of notrump on a ♠ lead: well done!

 

As it is, if we have game, partner is still there, so pass is the correct, partnership call. If he passes 3♠, it is almost certainly the right thing to do.

[foo]

Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly.  You have a minimum.  Bid it like a minimum.

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

??? In what way is bidding your hand as accurately as the auction and your values allows "masterminding"?

 

Or do you really think ♠KQ♥KJT95♦JT♣KQ94 has extras on this auction?

 

*The average flat 15 HCP has 5 controls. This has 3. Which the average for a 10 count. You are control poor.

 

*Apriori the DJ is not taking any tricks. It might as well be Dx.

 

*KQ tight, like any HH tight holding is not anywhere as good as having your honors in longer suits. Even if GOP has 6+S, HH tight is a potential communications problem.

 

Even before the bidding starts, this is a minimum.

 

Side Bar: 5422 containing a 5cM is not a traditional shape for opening 1N systemically for any range except the Kamikaze in any write up I've ever seen.

 

*Then the auction screams that GOP is likely to have S shortness and They have 9+S between them. Do you really think the SQ from KQ tight is a working (as in "likely to take any tricks") card? It might as well be a Sx.

 

 

*Even if your flat 15 was a good flat 15, and at this point we've definitely proven that the example hand is not, you still are not likely to be strong enough to take a Free Bid or make a X. GOP may have as few as 6 HCP for their Negative X of 1S.

Playing 3N or 4ofasuit (let alone 5ofasuit...) with a flat 15 + the average 6 is not likely to get Us a good score. And if They can work out that you are doing this, the Red Card is going to hit the table at supersonic speed.

 

The example hand is a minimum. The percentage action is pass.

 

 

Here's a 15 count I would compete with in this auction: x.AKJxx.xx.AKxxx

This hand has the playing strength of the average ~20 count.

[jdonn]

Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly.  You have a minimum.  Bid it like a minimum.

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

I don't know what you are talking about. Bidding a borderline-minimum hand that has gotten worse in the auction like a minimum hand is masterminding?

[whereagles]

Even before the bidding starts, this is a minimum.

On the given auction I agree the hand has gone down in value. But evaluating it as a min before bidding starts is masterminding in my book.

[whereagles]

Bidding a borderline-minimum hand that has gotten worse in the auction like a minimum hand is masterminding?

My comment referred to evaluation prior to the start of the bidding.

[bid_em_up]

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think?

No more so than opening 1N :)

Why do you say that? Many people allow the 1NT opening to have 5-card majors. It's in no way masterminding.. unless, of course, if you require that 1NT cannot have a 5-card major, period.

It is a very anti-field, and anti-percentage action. That to me, is what I call masterminding. Give partner a hand like xxx Qxx xxx Axxx. A normal hand, right? Go ahead, open 1N, see what happens.

 

The hand is a bad 15, the two suits it does contain are quite reasonable for suit play (especially opposite any fit, and the heart suit is playable opposite a small doubleton in most cases). Five of its points are in KQ tight of spades (not even a tenace), 2 of which likely disappear under the opponents ace. Another one of its points is in the doubleton J of diamonds. So realistically the 15 is only worth about 12 in NT play (if that) unless partner has well fitting cards.

 

I frequently will have a 5 card major to open 1N, that is not the problem. But, if you open 1N, you will rarely be able to play 2C/3C when its right to do so. This hand screams "play in a suit" if a fit can be found. You will never find the club fit when you open 1N.

 

Change the hand simply to AQ KJ109x xx KQ9x and the 1N opener becomes much more tolerable (to me, at least), although I would still say it is masterminding, since it is an anti-field action.

 

As always, jmoo.

[whereagles]

1.

It is a very anti-field, and anti-percentage action. That to me, is what I call masterminding.

 

2.

As always, jmoo.

1. Huh..? Apparently, to you anything that isn't conservative bidding is masterminding, eh?

 

2. Fair enough. To me, it's jmoo that you're wrong.

[foo]

What does "JMOO" mean?

[jdonn]

What does "JMOO" mean?

Just my own opinion.

 

Interesting question from someone who typed TANSTAAFL on another thread :)

[bid_em_up]

1.

It is a very anti-field, and anti-percentage action. That to me, is what I call masterminding.

 

2.

As always, jmoo.

1. Huh..? Apparently, to you anything that isn't conservative bidding is masterminding, eh?

 

2. Fair enough. To me, it's jmoo that you're wrong.

It really has nothing to do with being conservative. 1N is not descriptive of the hand, in any way, shape, form, or fashion. It is an anti-systemic bid (most likely), anti-field bid (the field will not be opening 1N, so you are swinging, in a sense), and most of the times, it will be a losing action. Also, it is anti-partnership, as it will irritate the crap out of your partner when you do this, and it fails.

 

Feel free to prove me wrong, though (but start a new thread to do it). :) Present a logical argument for opening it 1N then, if you can possibly find one. "Preemptive value" is not a reasonable argument for a bid that prevents your side from finding its best contract.

 

I, on the other hand, believe that I have presented several good reasons for NOT opening it 1N (as have many other posters).

 

You're quite welcome to open this hand 1N any time you feel like it. Just dont be surprised when you find your results are less than desirable.

 

We now return to our originally scheduled programming. ;)

[bid_em_up]

What does "JMOO" mean?

Just My Own Opinion.

[foo]

What does "JMOO" mean?

Just my own opinion.

 

Interesting question from someone who typed TANSTAAFL on another thread :P

If "JMOO" is a Longism (actually Heinleinism B) ), it's not one I remember.

 

OTOH, TANSTAAFL is the quintessential Lazarus Long.

[bid_em_up]

What does "JMOO" mean?

Just my own opinion.

 

Interesting question from someone who typed TANSTAAFL on another thread :P

If "JMOO" is a Longism (actually Heinleinism B) ), it's not one I remember.

 

OTOH, TANSTAAFL is the quintessential Lazarus Long.

I've read Time Enough For Love probably 30 times, but I dont remember it. :)

 

Now i gotta go read it again lol!!

 

Hmm, on second thought.....thats what Google is for. :) I wouldnt consider this to be a Longism, since he did not appear in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

[whereagles]

1.

1N is not descriptive of the hand, in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

 

2.

It is an anti-systemic bid (most likely),

 

3.

anti-field bid (the field will not be opening 1N, so you are swinging, in a sense),

 

4.

and most of the times, it will be a losing action.

 

5.

Also, it is anti-partnership, as it will irritate the crap out of your partner when you do this, and it fails.

 

6.Present a logical argument for opening it 1N then, if you can possibly find one.

 

7.

You're quite welcome to open this hand 1N any time you feel like it. Just dont be surprised when you find your results are less than desirable.

1. Excuse me, but I must disagree. There are many experts who open 1NT on a 5M-3-3-2. From that to a 5M-4m-2-2 isn't that big a step, especially when the doubletons have honors, as in this case.

 

2. Only if you agree never to open 1NT with a 5 card major. Otherwise it's completely routine.

 

3. That I agree. But I play precision on occasion, so I'm used to go against the field.

 

4. Sorry, but that statement is void without presenting any serious statistics.

 

5. Not if you agree to open 1NT with 5 card majors. Is that such an alien concept to you that you call it "anti-partnership"?

 

6. Isn't that self-evident? If I describe 1NT as "15-17 with balanced or semi-balanced shape", this hand fits the description beautifully. It seems you're just not used to the semi-balanced part of the definition, but many people nowadays are dumping more and more hands into 1NT because they've understood the opening can take a few off-shape hands without creating too much trouble. The upside of this is easing the pressure on the 1M openings, which is also a good thing.

 

7. I've been opening 1NT on 5M4m22s for a while now and it works just fine (only with regular pards, though). If the doubletons are weakish I usually open 1M, but if they're strong 1NT is the bid.

[jdeegan]

:D 4♣. An excellent problem, BUT the analysis contained in this thread IMO (or should I say, JMOO) is lacking in one important respect :angry: . NOBODY IS CONSTRUCTING HANDS FOR PARTNER. This particular problem is amenable to that approach because partner's distribution is considerably contrained.

 

The opponent's announced a 9+ card spade fit. This limits partner to two spades at most. Partner's negative double denies three hearts. Unless something is quite amiss, partner has nine or more minor suit cards and 8+ HCP.

 

Bankers have an interesting concept called the "worse case scenario" (WCS) that can be applied here. A WCS is not the worst possible case, but rather the worst case that is likely to happen. In this instance, it would look like:

 

♠ xx

♥ xx

♦ K9xxx

♣ AJxx

 

Even with this dog, one has a 25% play for 4♣ and three probable tricks against 3♠ in the form of one spade and two clubs. There are two finesses in the red suits. If 3♠ goes down, 4♣ probably makes, and vice versa. Four clubs doubled has three about equally likely outcomes:

 

down 2: -500 and minus 8 IMPs

down 1: -200 and minus 2 IMPs

making 4: +660 and plus 12 IMPs

 

So, a worse case scenario isn't too bad, and if partner has a better hand, we ought to be in good shape.

[whereagles]

I don't think you need to worry of opps doubling 4♣. They don't have the hcp to do that.