Another of those open 2C or 1x? hands

[whereagles]

Matchpoints, intermediate field, NV vs V:

 

♠ AKxx

♥ AKJxxx

♦ Ax

♣ x

 

Your opening?

 

(And interestingly, I wouldn't have opened it 2♣.. lol.)

[Codo]

much too weak in playing strength for me, I need 8 1/2 tricks at least to open 2 ♣.

 

So easy 1 ♥ opening

[hotShot]

I'ts a little weak for a 2♣ opening, add a Q in ♠ or ♥ and it's a 2♣er.

So 1♥.

[whereagles]

much too weak in playing strength for me, I need 8 1/2 tricks at least to open 2 ♣.

 

So easy 1 ♥ opening

Well, you do have only 4 losers, 1 in each suit :blink: That means 9 playing tricks... you know.."six-four bid more" :rolleyes:

[Finch]

Looks like an obvious 1H opening.

I have no rebid problems.

I don't have the playing strength for 2C; partner will take me too seriously.

If partner passes we are very unlikely to have missed game.

[luke warm]

i admit i'd never think to open it 2♣... 1♥ seems normal

[whereagles]

I don't have the playing strength for 2C; partner will take me too seriously.

This is something I never understand. How can pard take you too seriously if 95% if the time he's broke or close to broke? :rolleyes:

[Winstonm]

I don't feel the heart suit good enough for 2C. Maybe with the AKJ9 but for sure with the AKJ10xx. Hence, 1H on the given hand.

[mr1303]

Well, I'm going to dissent here. A couple of useful queens is all you need for game here, and this hand has excellent playing strength. So I'll open it 2C without a problem.

[Finch]

I don't have the playing strength for 2C; partner will take me too seriously.

This is something I never understand. How can pard take you too seriously if 95% if the time he's broke or close to broke? :rolleyes:

One of the advantages of a 2C opening is to improve slam bidding. Yes, 'game before slam' is a fine idea, but whenever you open 2C you will have slam in mind.

 

If partner knows that you are serious when you open 2C, then he can evaluate his cards in the context of being 'close to broke' and you will bid good slams and stay out of bad ones. If I had xxx Qx xxxx Axxx and partner opened 2C and rebid 2H I would expect to finish in slam much of the time (pretty much all the time my CA isn't opposite a void) becuase I know that 2 good cards are enough while the 5-level is in danger on this deal. If I have to backpedal on this sort of hand opposite a 2C opening, then opener is forced to overbid on better hands and we get too high.

 

It's a bid of a truism that people tend to overbid strong hands and underbid weak hands. When it happens at the same time you get to slam anyway, but when the weak hand really has a weak hand you get too high.

[P_Marlowe]

1H, followed by 2S, perfect if your reverses

force to game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Well, I'm going to dissent here. A couple of useful queens is all you need for game here, and this hand has excellent playing strength. So I'll open it 2C without a problem.

... of course with a couple of useful queens

partner will answer.

 

Playing forcing NT, with 4-7 mayor raise included,

if partner passes, you wont miss game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

This hand is a textbook case for the creation of the 1C forcing principle - the right 2 Queens and a secondary fit will produce game - a passable hand in standard bidding - yet the wrong two queens even with a modest heart fit gets us too high.

 

I understand there is a move on toward lighter 2C openings, but in my mind if you play a standard system you lose the value of the 2C opening by shading it too much and would be better served either accepting the limitations of the system or adopting a strong club system and take on a whole new set of problems.

When the range of a 2C opening goes extends from 18 with 4 1/2 losers to 30 and 2 losers you lose a lot of the value of the 2C bid and there is little room to clarify hand types.

 

Winston

[inquiry]

In standard 2/1 this is not a 2♣ opener.

 

Playing 2/1 that allows a 2♥ instant double negative, you could stretch to 2♣ opening bid. I play both 2♥ and 2♠ double negative. This hand is worth about 8 tricks (5H, three side quick tricks), and include acol 2 bids in my two ♣ opening bid (8 tricks, good six+ suit, 5+ controls), this had fits. So I would open 2♣ with any partner who plays this style with me. With a random pickup partner playing 2/1 GF, I would NOT open 2♣.

[MickyB]

Clear 1♥ for me, I'm very unlikely to miss a game and I'm much better placed to find the right level and strain if the auction continues.

 

I had a similar hand not long ago, and had to choose between 1♥ and a 2♣ opener along the lines of the one described by Ben. I chose 1♥, on the basis that after 2♣:2♥ I would fear we belonged in spades. Also, partner might play me for a stronger hand after 2♣:2♦, 2♥:..., 3♠, and there is no room to clarify major suit lengths below game. We missed a reasonable game that was bid at the other table, but there was a happy ending - the opponents misdefended for the 4th overtrick in 1♥, which saved an imp that won the match :rolleyes:

[foo]

Two things we tell novices about whether or not to open 2C with shapely hands:

 

"If your hand is so good that you would be sick to your stomach with the thought that you had just missed a Game if CHO passes your Opening 1bid, you should open 2C."

and

"Two suited hands should avoid opening 2C as much as possible."

 

So,

♠AKxx♥AKJxxx♦Ax♣x

 

Are you very afraid We will miss a Game if it goes 1H-allpass?

8/12 of the controls, 4 losers, ~8.5 expected tricks in hand.

The average 19 HCP hand has about 6.6 controls.

This foot is more like a ~22-23 count in terms of playing strength.

 

We need one good card from CHO to make game. What are the chances of CHO passing 1H when holding that one good card?

With only the CA, DK, and CK out, there's a good chance CHO has only one of those and that it is a K rather than the A.

OTOH, all 4 Q's and 3 of the J's are out. CHO's fair share of those 7 cards is 2 1/3 of them. If CHO has an A or a K and 2 other cards, even 2 J's, they usually are not passing an 1H.

 

What are the chances CHO does not have any A's or K's? What are the chances they pass 1H then? What are the chances we miss a game if they do?

10 cards are out. CHO's fair share is 3 1/3 cards. But only 3/10 are controls. It's ~2:1 odds that CHO will not be holding any A's or K's.

With a likely stiff in H's and a reasonable chance of 3-S, many pard's with less than 3 Q's are going to pass 1H.

Qxx.x.Qxxx.Qxxxx is about the worst most CHO's could have and not pass 1H.

Can we make Game if CHO has worse than this hand and passes:

say xxx.x.Qxxx.QJxxx ??

 

Let's pretend you decide to open 2C for a moment and see what a planned 2C auction looks like. I'll Assume 2D Waiting and no other gadgets.

2C-2D;2H-2S you have no problems.

2C-2D;2H-3H Again, you have no problems.

2C-2D;2H-2N;3S Hmmm

2C-2D;2H-3m;3S Hmmm

 

Those last two are the most likely auctions and make it impossible to describe our hand below 3N. That is usually considered non optimal.

 

Pick your poison based on what kind of partner you have, which problem you'd rather have, and which potentially bad result is going to hurt your partnership the least.

 

I expect my pards with 5- HCP not including any A's or K's to pass 1H in tempo.

I can make 4H or 4S with an aweful lot of hands that I expect CHO to pass 1H with.

Therefore I am opening 2C.

[whereagles]

Well, there's one thing about this hand that no one mentioned. It's not so much as the playing strength or hcp or what pard expects or whatever. Just give pard something like

 

QJxx

Qxx

xxx

xxx

 

and you suddently have good play for a SPADE slam. Add the club ace and you're talking a virtually cold 7♠.

 

However, the way to get to one of these slams on natural bidding would be by starting 1♥-1♠. Opening 2♣ definitely has a huge chance of burying the spade fit when you most need it, and that's the reason why I don't open 2♣. Change the spade suit ♠AKxx to a minor and I'll definitely try 2♣, as finding the minor 44 fit is much more difficult after a 1♥ opener.

[foo]

Well, there's one thing about this hand that no one mentioned. It's not so much as the playing strength or hcp or what pard expects or whatever. Just give pard something like

 

QJxx.Qxx.xxx.xxx

 

and you suddently have good play for a SPADE slam. Add the club ace and you're talking a virtually cold 7♠.

 

However, the way to get to one of these slams on natural bidding would be by starting 1♥-1♠. Opening 2♣ definitely has a huge chance of burying the spade fit when you most need it, and that's the reason why I don't open 2♣. Change the spade suit ♠AKxx to a minor and I'll definitely try 2♣, as finding the minor 44 fit is much more difficult after a 1♥ opener.

Don't know about you, But I'd usually rather be a H slam w/ my 6:3 fit over being in a S slam w/ my 4:4 fit...

 

In any event,

2C-2D;2H-3H;3S-4S;-etc gets you to the appropriate slam whether Responder has

 

QJxx.Qxx.xxx.xxx or QJxx.Qxx.xxx.Axx

 

The 2nd hand is easy whether the opening is 1H or 2C.

 

The 1st hand may very well pass a 1H opening.

after all, Opener is more likely to have a 5H332 minimum, not the OP's rock crusher.

 

Thus not only do we miss a game after 1H-allpass, we risk missing a _slam_ if Responder has a reasonably likely hand that probably should pass 1H.

 

Opening 1H is looking more dangerous...

[Free]

1♥, wtp? :D

[HeartA]

So easy 1 ♥ opening

ditto

[whereagles]

Pard had something like

 

Qx

QTxx

QJTx

xxx

 

The diamond finesse works, so 6 is on.

[HeartA]

1H. 2C would never come to my mind.

[bearmum]

Matchpoints, intermediate field, NV vs V:

 

♠ AKxx

♥ AKJxxx

♦ Ax

♣ x

 

Your opening?

 

(And interestingly, I wouldn't have opened it 2♣.. lol.)

 

 

Playing standard or 2/1 only 1♥

 

{and I am glad I play Precision as it's a good 1♣ opener --- and if partner can show support for either of my suits then I expect to be in GAME at least ;) -- if he has a complete bust we can play it in 1♥ (or possibly 2♥ if opps intervene)}

[Codo]

Pard had something like

 

Qx

QTxx

QJTx

xxx

 

The diamond finesse works, so 6 is on.

So any resonable opening can bring you into slam...If you like to be in a slam which has 50%.

[dcvetkov]

It is not a clasic 2/1 opener in sayc or 2/1. Its 2 level opener in Acol ( I think its called Benjamin, so I agree with ben here) But this hand needs very little for game. Sometimes you will make 6 opposite as little as 1 ace and good fit and a game opposite 1 right queen. So 1 H is fine, but i wont be surprised to see 170 or 200 on the scorecard probably half of the time.

 

Precision lovers will have point here. Strong club handles these hands better, but be prepared for a lot of work to grasp all continuations after 1C.