How many opened this 1S?

[asdfg2k]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sakt73h85d762c765]133|100|Scoring: IMP

p-(p) to you.[/hv]

Close match, theoretically good teams at both tables, 9th hand of 12.

 

And if you do open it 1S, is it a psyche, a tactical bid or "other"?

 

Would you have opened 2s instead?

[paulg]

I'd probably open 1♠ and would not be surprised to see others doing so.

 

I think it is a tactical bid and a psyche, although one I would expect a good team to recognise is possible by a third seat opener.

 

Paul

[Free]

I'd open it 2♠. I expect at least 1 opened 1♠, and wouldn't be surprized if both did.

[foo]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sakt73h85d762c765]133|100|Scoring: IMP

p-(p) to you.[/hv]

Close match, theoretically good teams at both tables, 9th hand of 12.

 

And if you do open it 1S, is it a psyche, a tactical bid or "other"?

 

Would you have opened 2s instead?

Eric Rodwell has said that opening 1M on such hands in 3rd seat often works out well.

 

Holding this hand, I definitely want a S lead and no other if We defend.

 

I can handle the subsequent auction no matter what.

 

2way Reverse Drury even makes this a safe opening opposite a maximum pass since I can control any auction and keep CHO from getting too excited.

 

 

This looks like a clear 1S opening in 3rd seat.

[kfgauss]

Opening 1S is not completely free, as partner may double them or otherwise misjudge a competitive decision based on counting on you for more defense. It has various upsides, too, though, and your ♠AK make up for some of the lack of defense.

 

Opening 2S seems a good alternative (though it's possible this will cause partner to sacrifice when it isn't desired) and has more preemptive effect, though sometimes showing strength (with 1S) is as effective as or more effective than preempting.

 

I'd probably go with 2S most of the time, but would be happy to try out 1S and Pass and don't know what's theoretically best.

 

Andy

[inquiry]

Perfectly normal third seat 1♠ bid. BTW, this would be termed a psyche in positions other than 3rd seat, but I would not conisder it a third seat psyche. IF it was a psyche, then by definition, "drury" would be a pcyhe control and thus illegal.

[Double !]

my old K-S background taught me to open these hands with weak 2 in 3rd seat to help keep 1-bids up to strength (and partner better have a good reason for taking any further action). A point that K-S made a long time ago that I believe to still be valid is that it puts enormous pressure on the partnership when the passed hand has to try to compensate for the possibility that 3rd seat opened on a subminimum. What I personally would open (as if it matters) would depend on partner and system. But not vul, despite not liking my 5332 distro, I likely would roll the dice and open 2S with this hand. To do so is consistent with keeping 1-bids up to strength, and it also adds a little pressure to the situation. Is there anyone who, assuming that they play weak 2-bids, would not open this hand with 2 spades in 3rd seat, favorable? (white vs. red)

 

I acknowledge that more modern thinking might not agree with that position and would consider this hand to be a clear-cut, lead-directing 1S opener, ready to pass any response that partner makes (better hope partner doesn't make a negative double, or that it doesn't go 1S- dbl- redbl), and having toys like 2-way drury available for good responding hands with spade support. Would one be likely to make a non-vul overcall of 1 spade with such a hand? My guess is that many people would answer "yes". Is the issue of whether or not a 1 spade bid a psych due to the fact that the hand doesn't have 8+ hcp's? IMO, not being well-versed in the regs, I wouldn't consider bidding 1 spade to be a psychic opener.

 

BTW: Ben. I like your comment about Drury being an illegal psychic control.

 

In order to answer the original poll question posed for this thread, knowing what bidding systems the partnerships were playing might have been helpful.

 

DHL

[MickyB]

My style with 3rd seat openings is that if I take another bid, I am showing game interest opposite a passed hand. I consider this an obvious 2♠ opener when NV.

 

There is no issue IMO - a 1♠ opening is a psyche (or at least a deviation), because the WBF doesn't allow an agreement to open on fewer than 8 HCP. Whether this makes Drury a psychic control is not clear - I'd still expect to sometimes get too high due to opening this hand. IMO it only becomes a psychic control when partner is forced to use Drury on any hand with support, or is not allowed to go on after 1♠:2♣, 2♠.

[pclayton]

1♠ is kind of normal but I don't hate 2♠, since all of my values are concentrated in my suit. I don't like the 5332 though.

 

White on red its tougher; I might psyche or try something else too. Even 3♠ is curiously appealing :).

[luis]

I think 1♠ is normal, not a psyche nor tactical and close to autmatic for any good bridge player.

I have no objections to 2♠.

I will risk that any good player will open either 1♠ or 2♠ in third position.

 

Luis

[asdfg2k]

Luis, is it fair to say that you disagree with Mike and the others that have called it a psyche?

 

If so, can you tell me why you don't think it is a psyche? That is, what definition of a psyche do you think it fails?

[badderzboy]

I can accept 2♠ as not a psyche (5 cards instead of 6 is ok but does the CC mention this) and but if it does happen routinely then it should be part of the CC etc as u have an implicit agreement...

 

I would hope the convention cards for all players that open this routinely as a 1♠ opener in 3rd seat (and do they alert it too just cos good players should know then us mortals might be surprised by it) i.e. is it stated as it can be this light in 3rd seat.

 

If not then this is a gross and deliberate misrepresentation of length or strength if your card is 11+HCPs and 5 card suit and of course if your partner can believe you can hold this hand then you have an implicit agreement and so drury fields it yada yada yada....

 

 

 

Steve

[1eyedjack]

can you tell me why you don't think it is a psyche? That is, what definition of a psyche do you think it fails?

I think it fails the adjective "gross" as in "gross distortion of shape or strength"

[Walddk]

1♠ would be a deviation but not a psyche. However, I would open 2♠ because it takes much more room away from LHO.

 

The question was if any of the two players opened 1♠ or not. The way this is put, my feeling is that both did.

 

Roland

[asdfg2k]

You don't think that a 4 point variation qualifies as a gross distortion? Would the same be true if you opened 2nt with 16?

[asdfg2k]

Yes, both did.

[helene_t]

I do not have particularely good experience with opening this kind of hands 1♠. But the problem is that too often LHO overcalls and partner bids 2NT or doubles.

 

2♠ is almost automatic for me. I know that a lot of good players open 1♠ on this. It's not a psyche (unless 1♠ is a transfer for diamonds, as in Moscito). Whether it's a normal bid depends on the pair's CC.

[Codo]

You don't think that a 4 point variation qualifies as a gross distortion?

 

It is not a 4 point variation. Opps expect good players to have 7-17 (upper limit depending on system) for a 3 hand opening.

 

So I think this is a "must" opening, 2 Spade with 5233 is not too sexy, but maybe it is better then 1 Spade.

 

If my pd plays my third hand opener to be strong enough to make it worth a natural 2 NT bid in the auction, we need some minutes break to discuss our system. Of course, this works just with drury or another way of sensible bidding.

[Gerben42]

Well here is the problem one 1♠ opener had:

 

p p 1♠ 3♦ (intermediate)

Dbl p ?

[paulg]

You don't think that a 4 point variation qualifies as a gross distortion?

It is not a 4 point variation. Opps expect good players to have 7-17 (upper limit depending on system) for a 3 hand opening.

I think 1♠ is normal, not a psyche nor tactical and close to autmatic for any good bridge player.

Like Steve I am a little concerned about how we, the 'good' players, should disclose this to less experienced players.

 

I too expect that a large number of good players will consider, if not actually bid, 1♠ here. Most good players play with 'good' partners and they will both consider it 'general knowledge and experience'.

 

And in the context of this question and match it is clearly not an issue.

 

But suppose you are playing one of the teams comprised of less experienced players - I know that there are some BIL teams playing to get experience for example. Is part of their learning experience that 3rd hand openers can be light or should the 'good' players be disclosing more?

 

Do we have any TDs around to help?

 

Paul

[kfgauss]

Well here is the problem one 1♠ opener had:

 

p p 1♠ 3♦ (intermediate)

Dbl p ?

A fine example of our opening going wrong with partner probably having misjudged a competitive situation (by acting over 3♦ when we probably should've passed it out).

 

In any case, I now close my eyes and bid 3♠.

 

Andy

[han]

I think that (especially when playing online against weaker players) it would be good to alert a third seat opening as "could be very light". The danger is that you only remember to do this when you actually are light.

[foo]

Well here is the problem one 1♠ opener had:

 

p p 1♠ 3♦ (intermediate)

Dbl p ?

Which is easier: taking 9 tricks, perhaps on a misfit and definitely with less than 20 HCP; or taking 5 tricks?

 

AKTxx.xx.xxx.xxx has 2 Quick, AKA Honor, AKA Power, Tricks.

Responder's Negative X implies that they have 2-S, so both your A & K rate to take tricks on defence.

In fact, unless GOP has 6+H there is a mild implication that the deal is a misfit.

 

Pass 3DX.

 

Is it guaranteed to work? Nope. Will you sometimes get a bad score? Yep.

But it is the percentage action.

 

 

...and BTW, opening this hand 1S in 3rd is not a psyche partially because you do have those two Quick/Honor/Power tricks.

 

AKTxx.xx.xxx.xxx is definitely a better 3rd seat 1S opening than a 12 HCP 4333 w/o any A's or K's 1m opening would be. Probably better than a 3rd seat 1N= 12-14 opening on such Quacky trash would be as well.

 

Yet no one would give you trouble for opening said 12 HCP hand 1m or 1N= 12-14 (except possibly GOP after you get a bad score!)

 

Neither a 1S nor a 2S opening in 3rd seat with the OP hand should be considered

illegal or unethical.

[luis]

I think that (especially when playing online against weaker players) it would be good to alert a third seat opening as "could be very light". The danger is that you only remember to do this when you actually are light.

The danger is being called names when you alert "could be very light" when you have 17 and they go for 1400 after pd redoubles their "protective" takeout double :-)

 

I guess there is nothing to alert unless you have special agreements with your pd to handle the third hand opening.

 

Luis

[han]

The namecalling argument is (insert word of choice here). If you have the agreement that you can open 1S on a 7-count (and you certainly have that, explicitly or implicitly, judging from your earlier posts) then you should let your opponents know.