Finch Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 We lost a 48-board match by 5 IMPs on Sunday. We were desperately unlucky, but also didn't play perfectly (hard to believe, I know). It's not very difficult to find hands where you could have done 5 IMPs better, here's one of them: [hv=d=s&v=n&s=shakqj86dj5caq1085]133|100|Scoring: IMP1♥ P 1♠ 3♦?[/hv] (You play 5-card majors, strong NT, short club) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 4♣ will give the best description of my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Yeah, I see nothing wrong with 4♣. Except that pard might take it for some sort of spade raise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted May 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Partner will not take 4C as a spade raise, I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 3H "If I can just get past this round of bidding" This must be really too offbeat since Frances, a very good player, did not offer it as a choice. I can certainly understand 4clubs here. 1) I hope partner can rebid 4Clubs as natural and not as a heart slam try?2) I hope I can rebid 4clubs over 3S as natural and not as a spade slam try?3) I hope I can rebid 4clubs over a 3nt rebid as natural? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted May 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 I don't think I can edit the poll options, or I would add 3H for you. The reason I didn't put it in was that it didn't occur to me: the main problem for me being that it isn't forcing. But if you want to evaluate the hand as not worth forcing to game then 3H is a (the only) possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Nasty problem I lean towards 4♣. natural and forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 4♣ is totally clear, partner will evaluate much better if he knows both your suits. The reason 3♥ wasn't included is that it's an underbid by the equivalent of about 2 aces, counting shape. That is not an exageration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 If douible is takeout, and does not even hint of ♠ support, I would consider that bid" Partner knows the vulnerability and type of game as well as I do, and knows I am forcing him to bid at the four level if he has ♣ preference. If double is some kind of value showing thing, then I will try the practical 4♥'s. Don't we all know if we bid 4♣ partner is going to rebid ♠'s, even if 4♣ does not imply somehow ♠ support...after all, partner will have a lot of ♠'s. Richard probably should be allowed to answer this poll because for him, this hand pattern and type doesn't come up enough to even consider a misiry 3♣ opening bid ( ♦ preempt or ♣/Major two suiter 4 losers or less). I suspect after 3♣-Pass-3♦, ? or3♣-Pass-3♠, ? My side would be in a slightly better situation. If RHO passes, I can show ♥/♣ two suiter with three losers, needing ♦ controls. If East ventures a bid, he is either one level higher (if he bids 4♦), or gives me extra steps (with redouble) to define my hand. It will be interesting to see if the misiry gimmick would have helped or hurt on this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 4♣ for me, altho I am not as sure as jdonn that it is 'totally' clear. It seems to me that the problem may come on the next round. What would 4♦ by partner mean? I would assume that he has a liking for ♣ and at least 2nd round control of ♣, but if this is a last train situation, we are going to be seriously in doubt. Maybe we can survive... 4♥ 4♠ 5♣ and then 6 with a control, pass without, but 4♥ probably shouldn't be a cue but an offer to play there. Does he have to bid 5♣ with ALL ♣ raises missing a ♦ control? I think so, but I am not completely (totally) confident that we will be on the same page. And 4♣ seems to me to be more likely to generate a 4♠ call than would 4♥. Give partner 6=1=3=3 and he'll pass 4♥ but be strongly tempted to bid 4♠. Having said all of that, I choose 4♣ because I really like this hand and 4♥ seems like an underbid. But I really won't like hearing 4♠. I fully agree that 3♥ should not be an option... this hand is far too powerful, even allowing for the poor ♦ situation: high card points are not the be-all and end-all of valuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 I bid 4♣ too. What happens when LHO bids 5♦? If I bid 4♥ partner has no chance to evaluate our side's assets. I don't think it's difficult to come up with hands where clubs is the correct strain and where we aren't getting rich off of 5♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 4♣ for me, altho I am not as sure as jdonn that it is 'totally' clear. The voting suggests otherwise :( I should clarify though. I don't mean to say it's totally clear that this bid will work the best. I mean to say it's totally clear that this bid is most likely to work the best, which makes the bid totally clear to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 4♣ I fail to see why this is even a problem, unless opener just bid 4♥ and thereby ended up missing slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 I agree with jdonn. While it is easy to imagine that 4♥ could work better on a given hand, I can't imagine ever bidding anything but 4♣ on this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand. Luis Aren't [hv=s=sjxxxxhxxdaxckxxx]133|100|[/hv] or [hv=s=sjxxxxhxxdaxckxxx]133|100|[/hv] normal hands? Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one. No? Tell me Luis, what am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand. Luis Aren't [hv=s=sjxxxxhxxdaxckxxx]133|100|[/hv] or [hv=s=sjxxxxhxxdaxckxxx]133|100|[/hv] normal hands? Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one. No? Tell me Luis, what am I missing? You are missing the forest but you did see 2 trees.You have a slam in the 2 hands you posted, but what is more likely ? That you can make 4♥ or that you have a slam in clubs? And in how many hands will pd bid 4♠ over 4♣ thinking you have a 5-5 hand so his 6 or 7 spades should play well opposite a singleton? I don't have the answers to those questions but it is my feeling that there are more hands where pd will bid 4♠ over 4♣ than hands where 4♣ will lead you to a club slam. And I have the feeling 4♥ is a solid game in both scenarios and the only way to convince pd that you want to play 4♥ opposite a singleton even when he has 7 spades is bidding 4♥. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Ok, but personally, i think 4C should imply 6-5 in my two suits (not just 5-5) and partner should attempt to correct to 4H whenever possible instead of bidding 4S, unless his spade suit is playable opposite a likely void. It also allows him to have some input regarding the final contract by evaluating his hand better. As always, jmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Aren't [hv=s=sjxxxxhxxdaxckxxx or dealer: ????? vul: ???? scoring: unknown]133|100| ♠ Kxxxx ♥ x ♦ Axx ♣ Kxxx [/hv] normal hands? Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one. No? Tell me Luis, what am I missing? Has nothing to do with this what to do on THIS auction, but playing misiry, the bidding with these two hands would be 3C - 3D3N <<----- three losers, need a ♦ control (king or ace)... on both of these, now small slam in ♣ is surely to be bid, and north will try to figure out if the ♠ King or heart shortage is useful or not by bidding 4NT (long story). A double of 3♦ should it happen to show a weak hand and diamonds (right) would help the auction as REDBL is harneshed to show strong hands without diamonds as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Ok, but personally, i think 4C should imply 6-5 in my two suits (not just 5-5) and partner should attempt to correct to 4H whenever possible instead of bidding 4S, unless his spade suit is playable opposite a likely void. It also allows him to have some input regarding the final contract by evaluating his hand better. As always, jmoo. And when you do have 5-5 what do you do? It's impossible to think 4♣ shows 6-5 just because you do have 6-5 here :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Absolutely agree with Luis, 4C does not show 6-5. How would people play the 4♦ cue after 4C? Does this show slam interest in clubs, or is it in first instance a choice of games cue? If the latter, then that would make 4♣ more attractive as partner is a little less likely to bid 4S. I believe that Arend and I tend to play these cues as choice of games. [perhaps Arend can confirm this] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Absolutely agree with Luis, 4C does not show 6-5. How would people play the 4♦ cue after 4C? Does this show slam interest in clubs, or is it in first instance a choice of games cue? If the latter, then that would make 4♣ more attractive as partner is a little less likely to bid 4S. I believe that Arend and I tend to play these cues as choice of games. [perhaps Arend can confirm this] Note I'm not bidding 4♣ here but if I had I would take 4♦ as a cuebid for clubs.It's the only bid to show a good hand for clubs, you only have 4♦ and 5♣ for good/bad hands with club support. That is one of the reasons why when you don't have club support you have to choose between 4♥ and 4♠, with 6 spades and 1 heart I think I would try 4♠ and that is why I'm not bidding 4♣ :-)Of course anything might work in the actual hand but I love this kind of problems because it is judgement what tells you what would work better in average which is what matters. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 That is why I tried the 3H, if I can just get past this round of bidding. I assume P will be pretty aggressive in making another bid, I hope. Well that was my thinking anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Luis, with Arend I would also bid 4♦ with slam interest in clubs, but then we would pull 4♥ or 4♠ to 5C to show slam interest. So 4♦ is a priori a choice of games, but it could be a slam try in clubs. This is quite common in other situations, for instance 1D-(2H)-2S-(p)-3C-(p)-3H is a priori a try for 3NT, but could also be a advanced cuebid for a minor. When partner bids 3NT and you pull to 4m then partner gets the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 That is why I tried the 3H, if I can just get past this round of bidding. I assume P will be pretty aggressive in making another bid, I hope. Well that was my thinking anyway. I have a lot of admiration for your 3♥ bid, I certainly prefer 3♥ to 4♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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