Leaving the forums

[Guest Jlall]

Recently, on a thread discussing "favorite non bridge blogs" I cited a once popular cultural blog. My post was deleted by rain left with the message that it was deleted, and that I should not purposely post offensive material and that non bridge blogs were asked for.

 

This both accused me of trolling and showed ignorance as the blog posted had no bridge content. A different member of BBO has had problems with the author of the blog I posted, thus it was deemed offensive. Rain also does not like said author personally.

 

I was personally offended and upset that my post was deleted. In 3900 posts, I've put a lot of words and effort into this forum. I'm not even close to perfect, but I have almost always attempted to add value to the community. I try to help the newer players and add my view to thoughtful bridge discussion. I have never had a post deleted, although I have had one or two edited (rightly so). When a person puts effort and time into writing something, it should be a big deal to delete. It should not be taken lightly. When someone who so obviously doesn't even click the link that you post deletes it for being "offensive," that is absurd.

 

I made 2 more posts on the thread, 1 giving numerous arguments as to why the blog was legitimate, another that was a very angry and frustrated post that basically outlined my frustration. In the latter, I linked the "offensive" blog again. I told Rain I would leave if it got deleted. If the link was so offensive, she could have edited that out, but she elected once again to delete my posts completely, both of these quite lengthy. Once again she called them INTENTIONALLY offensive. Do you really think I posted it to offend people? Was anyone offended but you? Do you realize the implications of what you are saying?

 

Being a part of a community where your words and time are so disrepected as to just be deleted on a whim is not something I want to do. I am perfectly supportive of moderated forums and think they are superior to unmoderated ones IF the moderators do a good job (like ben and uday always have). Rain is free to delete as she pleases, but I'm not going to just sit around and watch more of my time and effort be deleted when it is not offensive at all.

 

I appreciate everyone that takes the time to post here, it helps all of us.

 

Take care. Justin

 

Edit: I see my warn level was also added to. I'll let you guess by who. That's nice, thank you.

[fred]

I don't even know what your link was too, but please consider the position that Rain is in.

 

1000s of people read forums. If one of them gets offended by your link and complains to abuse@bridgebase.com, Rain has to deal with it. If ten people complain it becomes a serious waste of Rain's time.

 

Then there are the 10s of 1000s of people who log in to BBO on a daily basis. They send Rain abuse e-mail as well and some of these are really nasty.

 

Sometimes the people who complain are crazy. Often the complaints are about truly horrible things. Usually both the complainer and the complainee are in a highly emotional state throughout Rain's contact with them.

 

Rain gets dozens of abuse e-mails every day and she has to deal with all of them.

 

Most abuse cases are non-win situations for Rain since someone is going to be upset with her regardless of what she decides.

 

Please cut her some slack. Maybe she overreacted or misjudged in this case, but her batting average is very good in her very difficult job.

 

I will miss your posts. Hope you change your mind one day (soon!).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[luke warm]

it's rare that i admit learning very much from a person so much younger than i, but i can say that justin's posts are ones that i actually look forward to reading (his aren't the only ones, but this thread concerns him)... it's evident that he puts a lot of time, thought, and effort into his posts, and i for one certainly appreciate it...

 

it is impossible to know the nature of the supposed offensive url he posted, since it was deleted... gee, what a predicament

[sceptic]

Rain is free to delete as she pleases

 

she did whats the problem Jall?, she has a hard job to do and 1 out of 3900 posts is not so bad.

 

My sympathies are with Rain, she has an unpleasant job to do, I think her judgement is usually sound and I think this is not the first time you have left the forums, you will be back, hopefully when you are a little less tempremental, older and wiser.

 

I told Rain I would leave if it got deleted

 

This is the sort of conversation I have with children, did she call your bluff?

[jdonn]

Sceptic, why do you find it necessary to insult Justin and essentially call him a child, especially when he is obviously upset about how he was treated?

 

It's getting to the point where I almost think people shouldn't be allowed to refer to anyone else at all in their posts. Something about the internet seems to bring out the worst in many people.

 

The above post should have been deleted 100x more than Justin's post, which I do know what it was.

[mikeh]

Justin: as someone who has a tendency to react when certain buttons are metaphorically pushed, I empathize with your obvious frustration.

 

However, many of us have urged others, with problems on BBO, not to let the actions of one or two officious individuals cause the poster to quit, whether BBO, or the forums, and I make the same suggestion to you.

 

I should add that I am not expressing any opinion on the actions of Rain, and am not saying that she acted officiously, since I have NO knowledge of what it was that attracted her attention and response. However, if she acted in a manner that would appear to be inconsistent with the spirit of the forums, that should be viewed as reflecting on her... and she is not the reason why you post in the first place.

 

Your contributions are important to all of us here.... personally, I enjoy reading them, not only when I agree (which is most of the time) but perhaps even more so when we disagree..

 

Your post is generating a lot of feedback, which I hope will confirm the value we place on your participation... and I particularly liked Fred's....

[Deanrover]

It is a shame that you are leaving as you are a valuable member. The blog you linked to was notorious for ridiculing one of BBO's members. In fact that is what it was by far most famous for. I like Rain a lot, and she puts in huge amounts of work for BBO, which the last time I checked was entirely voluntary. She made what she thought was the right decision. I happen to disagree with her here, but I think her intentions were only good. I note that this isn't the first time you have left BBO forums or BBO, and hope you change your mind again.

 

Dean

[uday]

I don't know what Justin's post was about either, but I echo FG and add that I think J's posts are usually worth reading. We can't make him post but we can harass him here until he returns.

[Deanrover]

btw shouldnt this thread be in the watercooler forum?

[sceptic]

actually jdonn, may be rain was wrong to delete the post, I never saw it , I just don't think that Justin has the right to publically explain to all why he is leaving the forums and name the person responsible.

 

I do not think that

 

I am perfectly supportive of moderated forums and think they are superior to unmoderated ones IF the moderators do a good job (like ben and uday always have)

 

implies anything but Rain is not doing a good job (or do you disagree with my thoughts here)

 

I think Rain does a good job and I doubt it is a very nice job at times, one not many would be willing to do, so my sympathies lie with Rain and I am entitled to voice an opinion, just like you are.

 

Also can you tell me if this statement is that of a mature person?

 

Edit: I see my warn level was also added to. I'll let you guess by who. That's nice, thank you.

 

this is just a parting dig at someone, not mature behaviour at all.

 

this post is my personal opinion and probably not shared by many, Justin is a good and frequent poster, I just happen to think that his post here, is not very nice and aimed at a friend of mine, who probably will just sit back and say nothing.

[Al_U_Card]

And they're off! Just what we needed, another reason to debate endlessly about personal areas that the debate cannot possibly resolve. Post or don't as you please. Rain is brilliant in her functions and I support her decision 100%. Case closed for me.

[pigpenz]

I understand Jlall... :P

If terrorism changes the way you live then they have won.

If what Rain has done then it has changed you :(

Dont let the person who complained about your posts get to you or they have won......you are much to smart to let that happen ;)

[h2osmom]

I have never posted on BBO before, and Justin's post alone would not have been enough to get me to do so. Justin's post was honest, clear, gave specific examples, (as much as possible; I don't know what forum he linked to) and there was no name calling etc in Justin's post. He just stated what happened. The posts following have largely been disrespectful and condescending to Justin, and whether or not anyone agrees with him, he doesn't deserve to be condescended to, ever. He has been compared to a child; and he is not a child. It has been noted that he has left before, and suggested that he return when he is wiser. These things have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Justin kept to the issue when he posted, was not condescending even in vehement disagreement, and he deserves the same in return.

[david_c]

btw shouldnt this thread be in the watercooler forum?

Don't be silly, you can't fit this many people round a watercooler :P

 

Come back soon Justin. I hope you can forgive Rain's slight over-reaction: deleting the link might be a little paranoid, but it is a touchy subject after all.

[sceptic]

The posts following have largely been disrespectful and condescending to Justin

 

You may be right about this and my posts were not intended to endear myself to Justin, Justin will have more support and probably well deserved, his contributions to the forums are appreciated by many I am sure, even myself at times.

 

I also posted knowing full well, that Justin is well thought of and that any derogatory comments made about him, would not put me in a good light with a lot of posters here, BUT, I just happen to think that his post was offensive to a friend of mine.

[hrothgar]

Censoring posts based whether they link to "objectionable" content creates a host of problems. Without going into specifics, many liberals on the site (myself included) have some severe problems with Michelle Malkin. I'm guessing that some of the more conservative elements find find much of the content only Daily Kos or Juan Cole's blog equally problematic.

 

I certainly agree that some of the content on the Blog that Justin linked to might be considered objectionable. With this said and done, its unclear whether yanking this posting was the best way to block this information from the user base. When Justing originally posted the link I clicked on it, found a rant about Camilia Paglia, and promptly ignored it. It wasn't until I "discovered" that there was something juicy lurking in the background that I bothered to start burrowing down into the depths of the site...

 

In many ways, this seems reminiscent of the whole "Danish Cartoons". Without the the protests surrounding the publication of the cartoons no one outside a small area of Denmark would have ever noticed....

[luis]

You left BBO and the forums and your blog some months ago after some incident and then came back as everybody predicted, now you announce leaving again.

In all seriousness do whatever you want, why should we care?

 

Good luck,

Luis

[jdonn]

The posts following have largely been disrespectful and condescending to Justin

 

You may be right about this and my posts were not intended to endear myself to Justin, Justin will have more support and probably well deserved, his contributions to the forums are appreciated by many I am sure, even myself at times.

 

I also posted knowing full well, that Justin is well thought of and that any derogatory comments made about him, would not put me in a good light with a lot of posters here, BUT, I just happen to think that his post was offensive to a friend of mine.

And so your answer is to insult him? You could defend your friend without insulting anyone in return.

 

And you called him a child...

[sceptic]

yes you are right jdonn, I probably could have defended my friend without insulting anyone. But I won't be losing much sleep over the fact I think I am well within my rights to have my say on a post I find offensive and unnecessary.

 

I do not recall actually calling Justin a child, I may have implied it with some of my comments, but I stand by those comments, I think they are valid.

 

have you ever read Peter and the Wolf?

[awm]

An awful lot of potentially offensive material gets posted in the watercooler forum. Topics like politics and religion (for example) have potential to offend a lot of people. In the context of such a forum perhaps the moderator needs to be more careful than in other forums?

 

There was nothing offensive in Justin's actual post. The link was to a forum which provides commentary on literature, culture, and current events. The author of said forum is quite outspoken, both in terms of this commentary and in terms of bridge-related issues, and it is easy to see how some things this author has said would be offensive to some people. However, if one is going to censor posts that link to web pages by people who have offended some people, it seems like most of the content of watercooler could be censored.

 

Anyways, there's a reason I've avoided posting to (and usually avoiding reading) the watercooler forum. I've enjoyed reading Justin's bridge posts and blog, which I think are very well-written and well thought out (although I don't always agree with them). I'll miss his contributions here. Honestly, (and no offense intended Justin) I don't particularly care what his favorite non-bridge activities might be, and I think it's a shame that an argument totally unrelated to bridge is stopping him from making valuable contributions to our understanding of a game we all enjoy (perhaps obsessively so).

[Al_U_Card]

The posts following have largely been disrespectful and condescending to Justin

 

You may be right about this and my posts were not intended to endear myself to Justin, Justin will have more support and probably well deserved, his contributions to the forums are appreciated by many I am sure, even myself at times.

 

I also posted knowing full well, that Justin is well thought of and that any derogatory comments made about him, would not put me in a good light with a lot of posters here, BUT, I just happen to think that his post was offensive to a friend of mine.

Ditto.

 

Condescending? How about honest......Sabre rattling and threats....what a legacy. Where do they pick it up? Oh, yeah, right.

 

Hopefully no one will go on a hunting trip without facial shot-block spf* 12 gauge... :P

 

* shotgun protection factor

 

Can humor heal all wounds? Probably not, but at least you can laugh at this....

[Free]

I've had similar situations like Justin's in the past, but not with Rain. One of my posts was edited because the word 'crap' (meant as 'rubish') was interpreted wrong... My reaction was very strong in the beginning, come on, that was some ridiculous moderating (lol), but I cooled down eventually, just accepted the facts and went on. The moderators don't target you, they just try to do their jobs. Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone will admit that, such is life.

 

If you want to leave the forum because of one link which was removed, well, too bad for the forums, but it's your decision. I also like to read your posts and hope you take your decision when your feelings have cooled down. Perhaps you'll realise your reaction was a bit strong for such small 'error' (dunno if it's one). :P

[Al_U_Card]

In many ways, this seems reminiscent of the whole "Danish Cartoons". Without the the protests surrounding the publication of the cartoons no one outside a small area of Denmark would have ever noticed....

And who do you think publicized the cartoons?

 

Rain did not intend to stop people from visiting objectionable sites. She removed objectionable material. That is her job and she is a credit to it. When you want rocket science, don't ask the fish-monger.

[pclayton]

One of the reasons I read this blog is to hear Justin's opinion's on things. Frankly - he's in the top 4 of people who's opinion I really value. If Justin leaves - I will also consider boycotting this site as well on general principles. I am that offended by Rain's actions (I'm assuming this is the censor).

 

I am good friends with Aaron Haspel too. While his blog has a very humorous section on a popular BBO personality (that I don't believe has been updated in several years), it comprises maybe 5% of the blog's content. Frankly, it seems to me that BBO goes out of its way to protect this member in question whom I consider to be a charlatan, and Fred / Uday, if this offends you then I'm sorry.

 

If Rain (or others) would read the blog, they would see that there are some great sections on philosophy, economics, and even baseball.

 

The thread in question was what are your favorite non-bridge links? If I said: www.neonazi.com or www.kkk.com, would I be 'offending' anyone? I didn't say I supported these organizations, I just posted a link. Why should Justin's opinions about other sites be censored?

[jdonn]

yes you are right jdonn, I probably could have defended my friend without insulting anyone. But I won't be losing much sleep over the fact I think I am well within my rights to have my say on a post I find offensive and unnecessary.

 

I do not recall actually calling Justin a child, I may have implied it with some of my comments, but I stand by those comments, I think they are valid.

 

have you ever read Peter and the Wolf?

"Probably"???

 

You are within your rights to have your say on a post, not the person who wrote it.

 

Your comments about the post may be valid. Your comments about the person are not. Whether they are true or not is not an issue. You still have no right to post them.