Second double

[hutchau]

[hv=s=shdc]133|100|a general question regarding Lightner doubles.During a long auction where the opposition had agreed spades,blackwood was used & the reply on my right was 5H. I was void in hearts,so I doubled for the heart lead. 6S was bid on my left and passed back to me.I am sure 6S will fail with the heart ruff BUT will a double now CANCEL my previous heart lead request?I didnt think it would but decided pard MIGHT read it this way so I passed. [/hv]

[nickf]

I'm not convinced a double of 6S cancels the previous message. Your double of 5H has entered your partnership into penalty mode, not that this forces either of you to X 6S for penalties. It merely suggests a heart lead could be best.

 

I think the double of 6S says this contract is not making and to help the defense along, I'd prefer you lead a heart.

 

nickf

sydney

[EricK]

One point to consider is that if they are going down in a freely bid slam you are probably getting a good board whether you double or not. But if they happen to be making it even on a ♥ lead, then a double could be very costly for your side.

 

A Lightner double is not designed to get you an extra 50 points. It is designed to help you beat a slam you wouldn't otherwise beat. If it helps you beat the slam enough of the time then it will show an overall gain. If you have already told partner what to lead earlier in the auction, the odds completely change, and double now becomes much more risky as there is only potential for a much smaller gain, but the downsides (they make the slam anyway; they can run to a making slam) still remain.

[kgr]

Still ♥ at MP's.

I don't know at IMP's, probably you don't need to double at IMP's because you will get a good score anyway. But I would think that you still want a ♥ lead if you double. Your double then says that you are sure it goes -1, you are 100% sure that they can not run to 6NT and you expect it to go down more then 1.

[luke warm]

i've played the the 2nd double cancels the 1st

[DelfinoD]

It depends on the agreement. If the double cancels then you sometimes can show every lead.

 

Let's assume the bidding goes:

 

1♥ - 2♠

4nt - 5♦

6♥ - pass

 

Now if you:

 

double 6♥ partner will lead ♠

double 5♦ partner will lead ♦

double 5♦ and 6♥ partner will lead ♣

do nothing partner will lead whatever he want's

[ArcLight]

You already got your message across.

In addition, you have been taken off the hook, so no need again.

 

To make another double will cause pard to think, and (s)he may go wrong.

 

In Hugh Kelseys book "Improve your opening leads" he gives examples of a player doubling twice, and this asks for a different suit. So you are likely to get a bad result doubling again.

 

1) pard may lead another suit

 

2) pard will be confused and possibly annoyed, leading to disharmony in the partnership

 

3) the slam may still make and you are risking an extra 230 for 50 (doubled down 1, vs undoubled down 1).

[jdonn]

It depends on the agreement. If the double cancels then you sometimes can show every lead.

 

Let's assume the bidding goes:

 

1♥ - 2♠

4nt - 5♦

6♥ - pass

 

Now if you:

 

double 6♥ partner will lead ♠

double 5♦ partner will lead ♦

double 5♦ and 6♥ partner will lead ♣

do nothing partner will lead whatever he want's

This sounds good in theory but I always thought it was wrong, for a few reasons.

 

1) You often are quite sure they are going down if you are getting the diamond lead you wanted. It's not a down 1 doubled vs undoubled thing, for all you know they are down 2, 3, .... There was a hand from GNTs this weekend I didnt play where one opponent had Jxxxxx xx Jxxx x and the other KQxxx xxx - Axxxx and the opponents bid 6♥. This was doubled for the lead (spades were known not to be the lead) and went down 1400, which was necessary for a swing because their teammates bid a failing 6♦ down a few undoubled, so instead of -300 vs +500 and 5 imps, it was -300 vs +1400 and 15 imps.

 

2) Doubling 5♦ then 6♥ for the club lead has a flaw. If the opponents stop in 5♥ there is a good chance you aren't as willing to double that, and now partner will make a bad diamond lead thinking that's what you wanted.

 

3) If you want the lead of the 'off suit', such as clubs in this case, you can just pass throughout and that will be partner's most likely lead.

[Joe de Balliol]

At matchpoints, I think that since you've already doubled for the lead, I think you should now be able to double safely trusting partner to lead a diamond, and expecting to convert +50 into +100, or whatever.

 

At IMPs I think there is a fair case for a psychic double of 5D and double of 6H designed to request another lead. Maybe this is BS. Maybe I'm on to something. Who knows? But I'd be inclined to treat the double of 6H as cancelling the previous double, despite the example given [how often do good opponents reach a freely bid slam and go for 1400? Though Blofeld and MickyB managed it at the Spring Fours...]

 

J