Is this an opening?

[pclayton]

I pass and thought I was losing my mind until I saw the last posts from Justin and the 2 Josh's. 1♠ is possible I suppose if I'm playing Precision where pard should accept openings on this kind of drek.

 

A weak 2 would never occur to me on such a crappy suit AND good defence. Its simply a mischaracterization of the hand.

 

At San Diego, my partner opened vul / vul 2nd seat 3♠ on: ♠9876542 ♥x ♦xx ♣AKx.

 

I was not happy.

[whereagles]

pass pass 1♠ pass

1NT pass 2♣ pass

2♦ (all pass)

 

pass pass 1♠ 2♣

pass 2NT pass pass

pass

[whereagles]

At San Diego, my partner opened vul / vul 2nd seat 3♠ on: ♠9876542 ♥x ♦xx ♣AKx.

 

I was not happy.

DOH! That hand opens 2♥ :P

[pclayton]

Hi

another question: if the South hand is opened 1♠, how should the biding go

1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?

2) if West passes ?

 

Al

I guess your hand would make a neg x and you'd be off the hook, since east would probably raise clubs.

 

If West passes, I guess your hand bids a forcing NT and your pard still gets to play 2♠.

[pclayton]

pass pass 1♠ pass

1NT pass 2♣ pass

2♦ (all pass)

 

pass pass 1♠ 2♣

pass 2NT pass pass

pass

Eagles, you slay me sometimes. :lol:

[inquiry]

I always thought Zar points were kind of dumb, and this hand does nothing to change my mind.

Well to be fair to ZAR and his points, on "pure" count it is 27. He says to downgrade singleton and doubleton Queens and jacks by a point, so it reduces to 26 due to Qx doubleton. HE then adds that plus factors are honors in long suits and minus factors are controls in short suits. Both controls in a very short suit (AK doubleton) is another minus factor (at least one), and no honor at all in the only long suit is another. This is clearly less than 26 ZARS. How much less is open to personal preferences... (all this noted in the earlier post).

 

I would rather open

KQ98xx xx Ax xxx than

98xxxx Qx AK Qxx

which is how silly I think opening is on this hand.

 

Zar would count your first hand as 25 ZARs with no substractions and with bonus for good honors and spots in spades. Since he opens 25 ZAR hands with SPADES this would be an opening hand for him (he actually would probably open 2♠.

 

The second hand, has 27 ZARS, a clear pt off for Qx of ♥ (26 now), and two more subtractions for nothing in spades and all controls in short suit. Zar would clearly think (and his math would support it), that your evaluation that the first hand you show is better than the second.

 

But back to Als' question.

 

A) If WEST bids 2♣ it goes all pass or East takes some action, but NS is out of auction.

 

:lol: If West passes and NS are playing 2/1, north tries 1NT, south 2♣ and if not playing BART, north bids 2♦, if playing BART, I guess 2♥.

[jdonn]

1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?

AUUUGGHHH!!! 2♣, good grief! I don't know about other people, but I have found it is bad for my bridge game to attempt to go for 1400 on partscore hands. Frankly, I might go my entire life before I overcall vul on the 2 level in A9xxx of a minor. Is there a problem with defending when you have KQJ of the opponent's major and an awful suit to bid?

[han]

1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?

AUUUGGHHH!!! 2♣, good grief! I don't know about other people, but I have found it is bad for my bridge game to attempt to go for 1400 on partscore hands. Frankly, I might go my entire life before I overcall vul on the 2 level in A9xxx of a minor. Is there a problem with defending when you have KQJ of the opponent's major and an awful suit to bid?

Well put! :lol:

[kenberg]

Maybe I could open 1S, lho could overcall 2C, and then we could all send out for another round of drinks.

 

I voted for pass. I think the choice between 1S and pass is close. I think 2C is not a good overcall, and not close. I think opening 2S is from another planet.

 

Ken

[ochinko]

Hi all!

 

I was the offending party. :o

 

Al, you're not fair. The scoring was MP, not IMP. :lol:

 

I wouldn't dream of opening 2Sp this hand vulnerable. Honestly!

 

I figured opps were likely to have a heart fit, and it's even more likely that we had a spade fit. If I was going to compete to level 2, better do that undoubled by bidding 2Sp right away. Ok, you disregard Zar, but what about the Law? B)

[awm]

I wonder how many people would open on:

 

Jxxxx

Qxx

AK

Qxx

 

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

 

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be. :lol:

[jdonn]

I wonder how many people would open on:

 

Jxxxx

Qxx

AK

Qxx

 

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

 

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be. :lol:

I would be no more tempted to open that hand than the original hand. But yes, there are a lot of 'point counters' out there.

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder how many people would open on:

 

Jxxxx

Qxx

AK

Qxx

 

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

 

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be. ;)

Yuck! I would like to think everyone that has a down-the-middle opening bid style would pass this hand. That is really awful.

[kenberg]

So the actual situation was nv at mps? In this revised form I still would not open 2S, but perhaps some would. My thinking is that I don't know that I want a spade lead if they play it, and I don't have all that good a reason to believe it should be played in spades if we play it. It's true that 2S is preemptive, but the price for our own constructive bidding is too high for me. This no doubt has something to do with general approach to the game and since everyone can find hands to support their appraoch, it's hard to change any minds. When I open 2 of something I like some, preferably a majority, of my points to be in the suit I am opening. I don't insist on having a lot of points, I just want them in my suit.

 

But nv at mps? I upgrade 2S from "nuts" to "not my style".

[pigpenz]

either pass or 1♠, I favor 1♠ cause usually the one who can fire the first shot has some advantage from my experience

[pigpenz]

I'm not only interested in your bid, but the reasons why, because I couldn't convince my partner. :P

Well Al, if you were trying to convince JMVR good luck! ;)

[joshs]

I wonder how many people would open on:

 

Jxxxx

Qxx

AK

Qxx

 

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

 

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be. ;)

I only open that playing a strong club. A few of my partner's (Timo Erkoc for instance) used to yell at me everytime I passed a 12 count, and thats not that infrequent playing a standard system.... (I probably open about 90% of balanced 12 counts)

[mike777]

I wonder how many people would open on:

 

Jxxxx

Qxx

AK

Qxx

 

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

 

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be. ;)

I only open that playing a strong club. A few of my partner's (Timo Erkoc for instance) used to yell at me everytime I passed a 12 count, and thats not that infrequent playing a standard system.... (I probably open about 90% of balanced 12 counts)

easy opener. :) I could have worse. :)

[Guest Jlall]

Mike you crack me up. Sometimes you are meckwell and sometimes you are roth. I guess you are back to opening everything ;)

[luis]

1♠ of course.

Best argument? Lead directing

[whereagles]

1♠ of course.

Best argument? Lead directing

it will sure come handy if opps bid to 3NT ;)

[xx1943]

Al, you're not fair. The scoring was MP, not IMP. :blink:

Hi Petko,

 

you are rite. The tourney was MP. I apologize.

 

I put the tourney into Wayne's linconverter nd posted what I got, without checking the way of scoring. My fault.

 

Very sorry.

 

Regards

 

Al

[ochinko]

No problem at all. Obviously my bid (2Sp) was wrong even at mp. Learning something is more important.

 

Thanks for your cooperation and advice. I'm looking forward to play with you again sometime.

 

Petko

[sfbp]

Y'all need to realise what a rare hand this is.

 

Having all those X's and not even a Jack in the suit when you have 11 points is rather unusual. In the large BRBR data set with 24 million hands (500,000 boards), there were only 10 where dealer had a hand that satisfied the characteristics:

 

- Exactly 11 points

- Exactly xxxxxx in spades

- Exactly 6322 shape

 

So trying to build any system to account for hands like this is probably a losing proposition. What's the least lie

 

BTW, BRBR says that (in first seat) on those 10 boards at least, it's better to pass. I am surprised.

 

However I am sure it is a lot safer to open when you are playing limited openers in a strong club system for example

[pigpenz]

Has anyone run the hand through any simulators?