pclayton Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 You are playing in one of those early morning games before work. You call "last hand" and defend a boring 3N. Just as you are about to leave, BBO gives you as dealer: ♠AT ♥KQT8xx ♦A ♣AJxx Question 1: Is this hand good enough to become late for your 9:00 AM meeting? OK, lets say the answer is yes and you open 1♥. 2♦ on your left, 2♠ by pard, SIX DIAMONDS on your right. What now? By the way, don't worry about the meeting, someone called and said they were going to be about 10 minutes late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 This depends SO much on pard and opps that I have no idea what I'd bid. Perhaps a forcing pass, hoping that pard will be able to do something clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 As always I agree with whereagles. I would pass. Partner is usually going to X, which I will pass, but maybe he'll bid something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 No, the hand is not good enough to stay :-)I prefer hands where I have nothing so I can play the defense.When you have a nice hand they start preempting here and there and it becomes painful as in this very precise example. I would double with a normal 1♥ opening so I have to pass here showing a not normal 1♥ opening. Maybe pd can bid 6♥, maybe he will double in that case I think I will bid 6♠. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 What is the vulnerability? I'm not at all sure how this is going to effect my decision, but somehow it seems relevant. I guess pass is forcing because it is so clear that the opponents are not bidding this to make. I hope that partner sees it this way too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 everybody vul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 OK, then I'm passing and passing partner's likely double. It does sound like the opponents think we have a grand, but that may not be true, and I have no clue which slam to bid anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here? I'm not saying it isn't forcing, I just want to know the rule or basis on which people are assuming pass is forcing. I'm interested in hearing the rules people state. The one thing about which I'm sure is that the determination of pass being forcing should be based on the 2♠ bid by us, not any crazy jump by them like 6♦ (which Hannie seems to suggest creates a forcing pass on us). RHO could have a freak like Axxxx x Kxxxxxx - and then who knows if we want to be doubling or saving or neither. A freak like that isn't so likely a priori, but is not at all unlikely given the condition that RHO has bid 6♦ on SOME hand. Here we can see 6♦ must be on a very weak hand, but we can't be certain of that from the auction alone if we weren't so strong. For another thing, 'seems like it should be forcing since they did something crazy' is not a well defined rule, and it won't always be clear when it applies or not. Are people just saying a 2 level bid by responder in competition creates a forcing pass on our side at all levels? I'm not so sure about that either, though I wouldn't mind a rule that defines which levels it is/isn't forcing on. I have seen rules likes it is forcing on our side on the 2 level and on all levels starting with 4, or 5. Anyway enough by me, what are peoples' thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 There are different styles on a. how much is promised by 2Sb. how much is needed for a forcing pass My preferences are:a. the 2S bid may be shaded by about 2 points relative to a game force, but not much more than that. (This is stronger hand requirment than the common "does not promise a rebid style" where 2S might be KJTxxx Ax x xxxx) b. all game invitational+ bids, that were not based on a fit, establish a forcing pass if neither played had a chance to limit themselves subsequently to sub-game values So here we are in a force even after 1H-2D-2S-3D by the way I like to play. Note that the auction had gone 1H-2D-3D-6D, b would not apply. c. game invitational bids in a suit, establish a forcing pass at the 5 level or higher if neither player had a chance to limit themselves subsequently to sub-game values So here 1H-2D-3D-6D would be a forcing pass situation Note that my c, is a somewhat agressive agreement that will lead to some -550's and the like, but I think its worth it to be able to sort out if we prefer declaring or defending in the 95% of the cases where we go plus from at least one of those two options... In some partnerships, I play that the c situation sets up a forcing pass at all levels. I find this useful, especially at mps, but it is agressive. I actually prefer this agreement, especially if you systematically have a way of showing a mixed raise, so the limit+ bid is never shaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here? I'm not saying it isn't forcing, I just want to know the rule or basis on which people are assuming pass is forcing. I'm interested in hearing the rules people state. The one thing about which I'm sure is that the determination of pass being forcing should be based on the 2♠ bid by us, not any crazy jump by them like 6♦ (which Hannie seems to suggest creates a forcing pass on us). RHO could have a freak like Axxxx x Kxxxxxx - and then who knows if we want to be doubling or saving or neither. A freak like that isn't so likely a priori, but is not at all unlikely given the condition that RHO has bid 6♦ on SOME hand. Here we can see 6♦ must be on a very weak hand, but we can't be certain of that from the auction alone if we weren't so strong. For another thing, 'seems like it should be forcing since they did something crazy' is not a well defined rule, and it won't always be clear when it applies or not. Are people just saying a 2 level bid by responder in competition creates a forcing pass on our side at all levels? I'm not so sure about that either, though I wouldn't mind a rule that defines which levels it is/isn't forcing on. I have seen rules likes it is forcing on our side on the 2 level and on all levels starting with 4, or 5. Anyway enough by me, what are peoples' thoughts? Well, I hope it was clear that I wasn't at all convinced that pass is forcing. I was quite confused by the conviction of the responses that posted before me. I know that for me 2S does NOT create a forcing pass. It is true that "they did something crazy so pass is forcing" is not a well-defined rule (and I certainly don't have such an agreement with any partner), but on the other hand I am reasonably positive that partner realises that they are not making 6D (and that he knows I know this). So I am fairly confident that partner won't pass it out, and that partner will interpret my pass as a willingness to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 I think if one hand shows an opener and another hand shows invitational or better values, when the opponents leap to slam they should not be allowed to play there undoubled. Perhaps there is a freak deal that occurs once in a blue moon where they make, but it seems much better to be able to have a forcing pass available on every other deal where they are just preempting you. This is a forcing pass by common sense I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Well, even if pass is forcing (does anyone have Kantar's reference on this?) why would we make it? Do we really want to encourage pard to try 6S? FWIW, the guy across the table isn't renowned for his reliability... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Well, even if pass is forcing (does anyone have Kantar's reference on this?) why would we make it? Do we really want to encourage pard to try 6S? FWIW, the guy across the table isn't renowned for his reliability... No, but we do want him to bid 6♥: over which we bid 7. So for me the forcing pass, expecting to hear double. As for why it is forcing: see justin's post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 If partner did bid 6S and I had this, I honestly wouldn't feel too badly lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here? Robson/Segal's rules: any 'invitational or better' bid sets up a forcing pass if opps bid to the 5-level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 If partner did bid 6S and I had this, I honestly wouldn't feel too badly lol. You would not be worried about missing 7? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 If partner did bid 6S and I had this, I honestly wouldn't feel too badly lol. You would not be worried about missing 7? Definitely, I hadn't even decided whether I would raise it or not. I would definitely raise 6H to about...8. Spades is tougher...my reply was to Phil's question about whether we want to encourage a 6S bid. I know I do. As for raising to 7, it may well be ice cold (KQJ sixth and an ace is enough). Partner may also have bid 6S on a hand like QJxxxxx Ax --- Kxxx or similar. partner bidding 6 on a diamond void is not unlikely given this weird auction. I think overall I will pass 6S especially since I will already feel good about having bid 6. Certainly I'd be worried about missing 7, and I would congratulate the opps on giving me such a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 OK, thanks for the replies. I chose 6♥, since I really didn't trust my pard. Here's what I bought: [hv=n=skj9xxxhxxdqcktxx&s=sathkqt8xxdacajxx]133|200|[/hv] You get the J♦ lead, covered and you win. How to proceed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Easy to make double dummy. I guess both black suits and the location of the ♥J and/or A. Now I always make when it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Wow - it ended at that??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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