Does it set the suit?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxhaxxdajt9xxxcj]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 2♦

3♠ - ?[/hv]

 

I was actually playing Acol on this board with partner. Unfortunately, it was with an unfamiliar partner.

 

What do you bid over 3♠?

 

If you bid 4♦ (and I'm not sure if partner alerts this or not), what do you bid over 4♥ from partner?

 

How would you bid this hand playing 2/1?

[awm]

Assuming that 2♠ would be forcing, 3♠ should set the suit. However, it seems that 2♠ is not forcing in ACOL (at least the way many people play it) so you probably have to bid 3♠ with most 15-16 point hands with six spades regardless of suit quality. In this case it shouldn't set the suit.

 

Playing 2/1, this seems like a perfect "invitational jump shift" hand to me. If you don't play invitational jump shifts it's more of a classic "you are fixed by playing 2/1 without invitational jump shifts" hand and there are no particularly good answers. Over 1♠-3♦-3♠, 4♠ seems okay, or you can try a 4♥ cuebid (it's not clear that 4♦ would agree spades in that auction, but 4♥ must).

 

In any case if I responded 2♦ (say playing an SA-style system where 2♠ is forcing) and partner bid 3♠, I would try a 4♦ cuebid. This is a great dummy for a spade contract.

[han]

What do you mean about partner alerting 4D? My impression is that partner needs nothing more than a decent 6-card suit for the jump to 3S (well, and extra values of course), so trumps are far from set. Consequently I think that 4D should be natural.

 

I would bid 4S.

 

Playing 2/1 I would make an invitational jump shift to 3♦. If that's not part of the system then I would bid a forcing 1NT.

[mike777]

What do you mean about partner alerting 4D? My impression is that partner needs nothing more than a decent 6-card suit for the jump to 3S (well, and extra values of course), so trumps are far from set. Consequently I think that 4D should be natural.

 

I would bid 4S.

 

Playing 2/1 I would make an invitational jump shift to 3♦. If that's not part of the system then I would bid a forcing 1NT.

ditto

[Echognome]

What do you mean about partner alerting 4D?

If 4♦ is a cuebid, partner has to alert it. If it's just natural, he does not. Those are the alert procedures in the UK, so you're stuck with them. :) It certainly adds an unwanted complication.

[han]

Yes, I understood, but I can't imagine 4D being a cue in this auction.

 

I missed the title of this thread, if that is all you are wondering then my answer is clear.

[kfgauss]

If you bid 4♦ (and I'm not sure if partner alerts this or not), what do you bid over 4♥ from partner?

Hopefully I don't use whether partner alerts or not in my next bid!

[pclayton]

It would in 2/1, but ACOL......??

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4C, this should be a cue,

setting spades.

 

Why complicate things, if you

have a bid that tells the same and

is 100% clear.

 

Besides, even if 4D is a cue, it

probably would deny a club control.

 

Over 4H I bid 4S, I have shown my

interest and now it is up to partner,

only he knows, if he has a bare min.

or 19/20.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[paulg]

I don't believe that 3♠ sets the suit in Acol although it is clearly easier if it did. So this auction has complex continuations as it is difficult to distinguish between cue bids and real distributional hands: for example, suppose responder is a 1561 or 1165 hand.

 

Regular partnerships will have an agreement about which method they prefer. In a new partnership I would probably just raise to 4♠ and give up on slam unless partner can move.

 

Paul

[whereagles]

This sequence is one of the biggest issues of natural bidding. In non 2/1 systems, it usually doesn't set trumps. In 2/1 depends on how you play it.

 

Setting trumps or not isn't even the biggest problem. The strength is often ill-defined, especially if you don't play strong-twos.

[Finch]

I've had a lot of experience of (opponents having) this sort of auction, and I'm pretty certain that in Acol-land

 

i) Carefully thinking players believe that 3S did not set trumps, and that 4D is natural (many of them also believe that 4C is natural, but that is less obvious)

 

ii) Many, many people think 4D is a cue for spades

[Flame]

Dont know the original acol, but in sayc and other systems where 2D show 10+ hcp, it should be forcing up to 2NT or a 2M preference (1S-2D-2H-2S is NF)

[paulg]

In Acol, as played by the vast majority of players in the UK, a 2♠ rebid is non-forcing (as in the auction 1♠-2♦-2♠). Even those who play it as forcing know that their treatment is non-standard.

 

Of course, the 2♦ response may be lighter than many other systems.

 

p

[luke warm]

phil stated that 3S sets trumps in 2/1, and if that's true i didn't know it... i do know it very strongly suggests trumps, while limiting pard's hand to 16/17. 18 or so... having no clue what the bid means in acol, i'd just bid 4S (i'd do the same in 2/1, whether or not 3S set trumps - after having responded 1NT)

[Cascade]

Over 3♠ we play

 

4♣/♥ are cues for spades

 

4♦ is natural

 

Playing new suits as cues did not agree with me as I hate having a hand that I cannot bid ( a great 5-5, 6-5 or 5-6). For a while we played these new suits as ambiguous - either a cue or a second suit. But I also hate ambiguities.

 

It turned out that the two suiters were much less frequent so we adopted the cue-bid agreement. Our compromise is that with a good two suiter we can only get out at the six-level - 5NT would be pick a slam suggesting a second suit.