15 IMPs down the drain

[han]

I slept badly last night, my team lost 15 IMPs on the following hand:

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=skqxhxxxdkjcaq10xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1D-??[/hv]

 

My right hand opponent opened 1D and it was my turn. We were playing raptor, so I had no natural 1NT call available. Let me ask both questions:

 

1-What would you bid when playing raptor?

 

2-What would you bid when 1NT is an option?

[P_Marlowe]

1) 2C, the suit quality is ok

2) 1NT or if you downgrade the hand,

certainly not the worst idea, 2C as well

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Playing Raptor, I'd overcall 2C. The club suit is weak, but this looks to be a better description than a power double. (I prefer that the minimum strength for a NT oriented power double is roughly a Q better than for a natural NT overcall)

 

If I have a natural NT available, I'd probably bid 1NT

[Blofeld]

I think I double in either case. I don't really like 1NT even if natural ; I don't mind 2♣.

 

In fact I've changed my mind and I think I bid 2♣ if not playing raptor. Playing raptor I will often have the 'strong nt' type hand for a double.

[JohnnyH7]

Playing Raptor, I'd overcall 2C. The club suit is weak, but this looks to be a better description than a power double.

 

If I have a natural NT available, I'd probably bid 1NT

My thoughts exactly.

[whereagles]

Playing raptor: dbl, but not too happy about it. 2♣ could easily be better...

 

Not playing raptor: 1NT, and 2♣ if doubled.

[hatchett]

Double in either instance.

 

I prefer to have 6 cards for a two level overcall and here there is a very reasonable alternative.

[mikeh]

I have not played raptor (altho it has been played against me enough that I have some idea of its use), so I will confine my answer to non-raptor:

 

I would overcall 2♣. Sure, I'd like an extra ♣, but 1N, with those red suits and minimum values is not for me: if we belong in 3N, we can and should get there after 2♣.

 

Equally, if partner has the hand for us to be going high in ♠, we should be able to get there: unless LHO bounces in ♦ and partner lacks the strength/shape to act.

 

In the meantime, 2♣ is the single most difficult non-preempt for the opps to handle after they open 1♦. That is true whether they play negative free bids (now they have to double with good hands and partner's 3♣ steals space) or not (now, they have difficulty with weakish hands with only one major).

 

The downside is that 2minor doubled is not game, so the opps can afford to go head-hunting sometimes: however, on a ♦ lead (which I rate to get if I am in 2♣x'd), my hand is not too bad.

 

And if they are gunning for me in ♣, they'll probably be gunning for me in notrump as well.... takeout double is my 3rd choice, not my second. And there will be many hands on which they would double 1N yet not double 2♣.... give lho 4-4 in the majors, and he is making a negative double of 2♣ on hands on which he'd happily double 1N (or redouble a double).

[han]

My choice at the table has not been mentioned, perhaps for good reasons. I passed and the opponents quickly bid to 4H, making. At the other table there was some hilarious bidding by the opponents but they landed in 5C, also making. 15 IMPs down the drain.

[pclayton]

2C. Its usually more dangerous not to overcall on hands like this than to pass.

 

I hope that you play power dbls along with raptor.

 

As far as dbl vs 1N, I'm a little torn. 1N is a better description, but if pard can't jump over a TOx, what do you have? A TOx gives us the safety of the 1 level. But I still like 2C.

[whereagles]

but 1N, with those red suits and minimum values is not for me: if we belong in 3N, we can and should get there after 2♣.

Well, 1NT will probably put you in 3NT more easily than 2♣. Besides, if pard has a 5 card major, 1NT automatically locates our best fit, whereas 2♣ will only have it located if pard can act over 2♣ (not a trivial thing).

 

What I'm saying is that 2♣ kinda like "puts all eggs into 1 basket", whereas 1NT seems more flexible.

[hotShot]

My choice at the table has not been mentioned, perhaps for good reasons. I passed and the opponents quickly bid to 4H, making. At the other table there was some hilarious bidding by the opponents but they landed in 5C, also making. 15 IMPs down the drain.

Assume opener has a minimum of 12 HCP and you hold 15, that leaves the other two players with a combined max. of 13 HCP. So on average your partner will hold 6-7 HCP, if opener is minimum. Often he will have less than that.

Those weak LAW based rises are used to cut your sides communication. Your partner does not know about your strength, so he can't make use his distribution, while you will never know, that your partners distributional strength willl allow you to score a good result.

 

Rule of second

With a strong hand you should never be silent in second seat, because you will never get a second chance.

 

1 - dbl should include those nat. 1NT calls now, but 2♣ is a nice bid too (but dbl shows more strength)

 

2- without anything in ♥ and with only 1 stopper in ♦ i guess i would bid 2♣.

[han]

Rule of second

With a strong hand you should never be silent in second seat, because you will never get a second chance.

 

I assume that this is your own rule hotshot, I doubt a good bridge player would ever say this. Such nonsense.

[Gerben42]

Playing Raptor I would Double here, if 1NT were available I'd Double. Too light for 1NT and too bad suit for 2♣.

 

Okay I'd prefer a ♥ honor for Dbl but it's okay.

[luis]

2♣ and 2♣

I have rule about overcalling 2♣ over 1♦ whenever that is either resonable or not completely insane including the mildly insane overcalls (not this one). The reason is that removing both 1♥, 1♠ and 1NT responses usually makes some damage to the opponents bidding.

 

Luis

[hotShot]

Rule of second

With a strong hand you should never be silent in second seat, because you will never get a second chance.

 

I assume that this is your own rule hotshot, I doubt a good bridge player would ever say this. Such nonsense.

Well I would like to hear at least one argument for that.

 

I can back my rule with counting points and simple arithmetics.

I might even argue with the number of posts that suggested to bid "pass" up to now.

 

I would accept that one should "never say never", but i guess experts know when to bend the rules.

[han]

There are many good hands where I bet all experts would agree that a pass is right. You may very well be right that pass is bad on *this* hand, but you made a general statement. And that statement is nonsense imo.

[Double !]

I abstain from question #1: I have never played raptor, couldn't justify an opinion.

 

Question 2: If available, right or wrong, I would risk a 1NT overcall. 1). I avoid making 2-level overcalls on 5-card suits on minimum or not-so-great hands, 2) double is a viable option although I don't like the fact that my hand is semi-balanced and it lacks a 4-card major: maybe the hand will play well in a 4-3 fit, 3) my honors are located behind the opening bidder, and the 1NT bid makes the decision to compete or not easier for partner who now has a closer idea of what my hand is than had i overcalled 2C or doubled.

 

I have sympathy for the Pass. Whata happened next was rather unusual.

 

DHL

[pbleighton]

Hotshot:

 

You are in the second seat, dealer opens 1S, you have KQxxx-A9xx-AKx-x.

 

I routinely bid with hands which would make most players shudder, but I would pass here.

 

What is your call? If you double, what do you do when pd bids 2C?

 

Peter

[hotShot]

Hotshot:

 

You are in the second seat, dealer opens 1S, you have KQxxx-A9xx-AKx-x.

 

I routinely bid with hands which would make most players shudder, but I would pass here.

 

What is your call? If you double, what do you do when pd bids 2C?

 

Peter

Well selected hand!

 

The average opening strength of a 1♠ opening in a 5 card-major system is about 14.5 HCP. I assume opps to open with 12+ HCP. Holding 16HCP of my own, third and 4th seat will hold a combined maximum strength of 12, with an average at 10-.

Responder will have trouble to rebid with less than 6 HCP and will pass most of the time. Partner will usually not reopen with less than 8 HCP. Opener has no reason to bid on either.

 

If i pass, it is unlikely that i will get a second chance to bit.

 

My hand should be worth at least 6 tricks playing ♠, but a penalty dbl is not possible. If partner has a trick or two, opps will be down.

So from my point of view, the best opps can score is 80 for 1♠= or, if responder pulls his only option, 90/120 1NT=/+1.

I hope we agree so far.

 

So opps can hardly make their opening bid, there is nothing to win for our side,

i have the wrong shape for dbl and a single to prevent NT, so i would pass.

 

The chances for a suit to be 5521 or 5530 is 4%. Since the player with the other 5 cards can be anyone of the other three and since among the handtypes with a 5card suit, 5431 is not too common , this type of exception is less likely than 1%.

But i will consider to add a footnote. :)

[Finch]

Back to the original question. I have also never played raptor so I don't have much of a feel for what bids show playing it.

 

But on the given hand I don't really object to any of

- Double, take-out of diamonds (with KQx KJx xx AQ10xx this would be clear)

- 1NT, though it's a bit light vul and would be my third choice

- 2C, for all the reasons mikeh mentions

 

I know you've told us what happened next, but I wouldn't pass.

 

To paraphrase the 'rule of second'

With a strong hand and shortage in their suit you should not be silent in second.