How do you bid this hand playing 2/1?

[jdeegan]

:( Too good for a WJS? Not good enough for a free bid? Can I make a negative dbl and bid hearts later? If I do that what would it mean? Don't tell me to play negative free bids, because I don't, won't and never will utilize that instrument of darkness.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I take it, that you do not play neg. free

bids. I think the hand is borderline for

a forcing 2H, but you will survive most

of the time, unless 2H is game forcing.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

easy, without free bids, this is a borderline X followed by a heart bid at the cheapest possible level. But I could live with a direct 2 ♥ bid too, much playing strength, really good suit.

[kfgauss]

The fact that you play 2/1 shouldn't really be relevant here. The standard agreement is that after an overcall like this, you revert to "1950's standard" style where most of partner's bids are NF after your 2H bid (partner bids 2S to set up a force, so 3D immed is NF, but 2S..3D is F).

 

That said, 2H does promise some values, something like 10+ (it's possible to stretch with a great suit).

 

This hand isn't quite good enough (it's close though), and so you double first and then bid hearts, which is the standard way to show a long heart suit in a hand not good enough for 2H.

 

In this particular situation, there's no harm in this (you've promised 4 hearts, then when you bid again you're just showing more) and so basically everyone plays this way. Some other auctions are more controversial:

 

1D (2C) X. Can this be done with a long heart suit or a long spade suit in a hand not good enough to bid 2M? The usual suggestion is that it is ok, but partner isn't really supposed to cater to it, so you should be ok correcting partner's jump bid in the other major to your major at whatever level. Some find this frightening with hearts (it's easier to outbid partner when you have spades) and only do it with long spades.

 

1H (1S) X. Can this be a long minor? Most would want to have at least 3 cards in the other minor to do this, and probably only with diamonds, not clubs, basically because you're ok whatever happens: if partner bids clubs at a low level, you correct to diamonds, and if partner jumps to 5C or some such, you probably just pass.

 

Andy

[inquiry]

DBL then rebid hearts as cheaply as possible. Not good enough for free bid, good suit.

[whereagles]

easy, without free bids, this is a borderline X followed by a heart bid at the cheapest possible level. But I could live with a direct 2 ♥ bid too, much playing strength, really good suit.

what he said

[JohnnyH7]

In competitive auctions, sometimes you have to stretch. I would always bid 2H with this hand. If the opponents stopped bidding, sure I'd X and bid hearts, but especially with my partial diamond fit, it would not surprise me if this auction got competitive (and high) quickly. If I don't get my suit in I may lose it forever.

 

As for playing strength, I think this hand is fine for 2H. The DQ is nice and 6 good hearts are useful. Treating it as "invitational" with hearts feels right. It lacks the defense that is generally required for this bid.

 

Modern experts also tend to make this bid when they have a diamond fit and 5 hearts and are light. It's a bidders game.

[kenberg]

If my clubs were Qxx and my diamonds T9, I guess I would double and then bid hearts (if possible). With the given holding, it seems that encouraging partner to contest the auction is right so I bid 2H. It's forcing but not game forcing, and if the opponents persist in spades it gives partner some reasonable guidance as to where my length is. If my LHO is about to bid 3S, I think I will feel a lot better if I have bid 2H than if I had made a negative double. If partner has some hearts our double fit sould play well. If he doesn't have hearts he can pass 3S to hear more about my hand, and I will pass since I have no good reason to think we can beat 3S. If he doubles 3S I will be a little nervous but I will pass and lead the king of hearts.

 

I have hearts and values, so I bid hearts.

[luis]

I would try 2♥ and see what happens.

In -THEORY- dbl and then hearts might be correct but in practice I think that bidding 2♥ with such a good suit can't be very bad. So I would experiment bidding 2♥.

 

Luis

[pbleighton]

"I would try 2♥ and see what happens.

In -THEORY- dbl and then hearts might be correct but in practice I think that bidding 2♥ with such a good suit can't be very bad. So I would experiment bidding 2♥."

 

Agree, though it is close. 2H is an overbid, but if you double, you will never be able to convince pd you have this suit.

 

Peter

[xx1943]

I would try 2♥ and see what happens.

In -THEORY- dbl and then hearts might be correct but in practice I think that bidding 2♥ with such a good suit can't be very bad. So I would experiment bidding 2♥.

 

Luis

 

"I would try 2♥ and see what happens.

In -THEORY- dbl and then hearts might be correct but in practice I think that bidding 2♥ with such a good suit can't be very bad. So I would experiment bidding 2♥."

 

Agree, though it is close. 2H is an overbid, but if you double, you will never be able to convince pd you have this suit.

 

Peter

Imho 100% rite Luis and Peter

 

I'm sure if you put this hand in an tourney about 90% of the players will bid 2♥.

Perhaps jdeegan can provide us with the link, where this hand happened so we can look up if I'm rite.

 

Perhaps Stephen (sfbp) likes to run this through his BrBr.

 

Sincerly

Al

[foo]

How do you bid this hand playing 2/1?,

1D-(1S)-??

holding 42.KQJ982.Q43.T9

 

It's close between X then bid H's to show a minimum with long H's or a direct 2H bid showing 10+ playing points (8 HCP + H suit that will play for 1 loser opposite Hx + nice intermediates in H's and C's).

 

To me, the location of Qxx makes all the difference.

 

Qxx in GOP's suit means that it is odds on that We have at least a fit and the Q is working.

Qxx in the om means the Q has a non ignorable chance of being waste paper.

 

2H in the 1st case. X intending to rebid H's in the 2nd case.

[luke warm]

for doublers, after 1d (1s) x (2s) now what? say partner has ace third in hearts, can he bid 3h with that? if not, what do you do if it goes 1d (1s) x (2s) p (p)?

 

for the (forcing) free bidders, how can partner ever tell whether you're 2632 with an 8 count vs. 2632 with a 12 count? this is a very good nfb in my opinion, 7/8-11 and not forcing

[jdonn]

for doublers, after 1d (1s) x (2s) now what? say partner has ace third in hearts, can he bid 3h with that? if not, what do you do if it goes 1d (1s) x (2s) p (p)?

 

for the (forcing) free bidders, how can partner ever tell whether you're 2632 with an 8 count vs. 2632 with a 12 count? this is a very good nfb in my opinion, 7/8-11 and not forcing

I think the doublers all made it clear they would rebid hearts at the cheapest (reasonable) level at their next turn, so 3♥ there for better or worse. Partner will at least have a good idea of our hand.

 

I sort of agree with others that 2♥ the first time is technically wrong, but often works out pretty well.

[Free]

I'm also a 2♥ bidder: I have a great 6 card suit, and Qxx in partner's suit. I expect opponents might bid some ♠ (4♠ is quite possible) and then partner will be well placed to make a good decision. If I double, he knows nothing...

[foo]

for doublers, after 1d (1s) x (2s) now what? say partner has ace third in hearts, can he bid 3h with that? if not, what do you do if it goes 1d (1s) x (2s) p (p)?

 

for the (forcing) free bidders, how can partner ever tell whether you're 2632 with an 8 count vs. 2632 with a 12 count? this is a very good nfb in my opinion, 7/8-11 and not forcing

If I decide to X, then the auction 1D-(1S)-X-(2S);-pa-pa-?? gives me the opportunity to clarify the strength range of my hand.

With a minimum Negative X, I pass. With maximum Negative X, I make a bid.

xx.KQJxxx.Qxx.xx is clearly in the top half of the hands I might X with, so I'm bidding 3H.

 

If I decide to bid 2H, then the auction 1D-(1S)-2H-(2S);pa-pa-?? gives me the opportunity to clarify the strength of my hand...

xx.KQJxxx.Qxx.xx is clearly in the bottom half of the hands I might bid 2H with, so I'm passing.

 

With good hands, and certainly with an Opening bid facing an Opening bid (12 HCP with KQJxxx of H's is definitely an Opening bid), I'm doing something along the lines of bidding 3H (usually considered Forcing here), or cue bidding 3S, or even bidding 3N (if I have S's stopped.) depending on my hand.

 

 

Regardless, "CHO" should have minimal problems with regards to what to do next.

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I would be more concerned that the auction is about to go 1D-(1S)-x-(3S)-p-p-?.

 

Now are all the doublers willing to bid 4H on the hand? If not, what action do you plan on taking?

 

I think an immediate 2H, while a slight overbid, will help partner decide what to do when this is the case.

[inquiry]

Personally, I would be more concerned that the auction is about to go 1D-(1S)-x-(3S)-p-p-?.

 

Now are all the doublers willing to bid 4H on the hand? If not, what action do you plan on taking?

 

I think an immediate 2H, while a slight overbid, will help partner decide what to do when this is the case.

Well the 2♥ bidders have to worry about...

 

1D-(1S)-x-(3S)-4C-p-?.

 

Now do they bid 4♥ or correct to 3♦. And if they bid 4♥, will their partner play them for a better hand, given they didn't make weak jump overcall? Or at us vul, them not, how about 1D-(1S)-2H-(4S); Pass-(Pass)-?

 

Does partner think his pass is forcing? What if partner doubles 4♠ (or EVEN 3♠ on the auction you gave) thinking we have some defense. Where is our defense? The ♦Queen in partner suit? The slow hearts in our long suit?

 

What I am suggesting is what is obvious from the replies to this thread. Nothing is clear cut right: dbl, 2♥, 3♥ all have flaws. I suspect the 2♥ bidders are going to try to insist on hearts (and the doublers are too).

 

In the real world, I play transfer advance here and bid tranfer into ♥, negative free bid or better values. Even with this bid, it is not clear the follow ups in competition will be easy.

[P_Marlowe]

If I decide to bid 2H, then the auction 1D-(1S)-2H-(2S);pa-pa-??  gives me the opportunity to clarify the strength of my hand...

xx.KQJxxx.Qxx.xx is clearly in the bottom half of the hands I might bid 2H with, so I'm passing.

Hi,

 

I dont think that you can pass out,

at least for me partners pass was

forcing.

The situation

1D - (1S) - 2H (1) - (2S)

pass - ...

(1) forcing for one round

 

is similar to the situation

1D - (pass) - 2H (2) - (2S)

pass ---

(2) forcing for one, promising a

rebid or even forcing to game

 

And in the later situation partners pass is clearly

forcing.

Holding your original hand you clearly have to bid 3H.

If you dont like this, you will have to dbl.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Personally, I would be more concerned that the auction is about to go 1D-(1S)-x-(3S)-p-p-?.

 

Now are all the doublers willing to bid 4H on the hand? If not, what action do you plan on taking?

<snip>

Pass, wtp?

 

Did your hand get any stronger during

the bidding, do you think you miss game?

 

No, so pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ABadPlayer]

Neg dbl then 2H to show a hand that was to weak to bid 2H directly.

[foo]

If I decide to bid 2H, then the auction 1D-(1S)-2H-(2S);pa-pa-??  gives me the opportunity to clarify the strength of my hand...

xx.KQJxxx.Qxx.xx is clearly in the bottom half of the hands I might bid 2H with, so I'm passing.

Hi,

 

I dont think that you can pass out,

at least for me partners pass was

forcing.

The situation

1D - (1S) - 2H (1) - (2S)

pass - ...

(1) forcing for one round

 

is similar to the situation

1D - (pass) - 2H (2) - (2S)

pass ---

(2) forcing for one, promising a

rebid or even forcing to game

 

And in the later situation partners pass is clearly

forcing.

Holding your original hand you clearly have to bid 3H.

If you dont like this, you will have to dbl.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

"forcing for one round" means just that. =1= round. Without interference.

 

1D-(1S)-2H-(2S);pa-pa-?? is definitely passable. You did not promise a GF hand, nor D support, nor 6+H, nor any S stops. 10 HCP in xxx.HHxxx.Hx.Hxx your bid. Or worse, move an H from H's to C's.

I might X on general values, but such hands do not scream we are setting 2S easily even with 22-23 HCP given that Opener did not show S length or S stops. Nor has Opener shown extra values. If Opener has a minimum w/o a fit for me and w/o S's, our best strategy may very well to pass quietly and hope we can set 2S enough by defending well.

 

1D-pa-2H-(2S) playing Strong Jump Shifts is a completely different story.

The SJS is GF, setting a Forcing Pass among other things.

 

1D-pa-2H!-(2S) playing Weak Jump Shifts is of course passable.

[P_Marlowe]

<skip>

 

1D-pa-2H-(2S) playing Strong Jump Shifts is a completely different story.

 

<skip>

correct, wrong example, just exchange 2C with 2H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[foo]

<skip>

 

1D-pa-2H-(2S) playing Strong Jump Shifts is a completely different story.

 

<skip>

correct, wrong example, just exchange 2C with 2H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Oh. The auction you meant was 1D-pa-2C-(2S)?

 

Playing 2/1 GF, a Forcing Pass has definitely been established.

 

 

Playing a non GF 2/1, it is less clear.

We could have as few as 21-22 HCP if either or both of Us are minimumn for Our bids.

That's not usually considered enough to establish a Forcing Pass.

 

If the auction develops along the lines of 1D-pa-2C-(2S);3m-... Opener is certainly not showing extra values or defensive values, just support (3C) or extra shape (3D).

 

OTOH, 1D-pa-2C-(2S);X or 1D-pa-2C-(2S);2N implies decent chances of Us defending a S contract profitably. After either of these, I'd say the "We play or They play X'd." principle has been established.

 

...and of course 1D-pa-2C-(2S);pa-pa-?? puts the onus on Responder to clarify what options the partnership should be considering.

[moysian]

Too bad! Your hand is a poster child for the Negative Free Bid (NFB). The greatest value of the NFB is to enable your side to escape a misfit at the two-level (presumably in your suit). All other approaches force the hand to the three level, or higher. The only price to pay is that opener needs to recognize that your negative double can now include single-suited GF hands (your hand, plus an outside Ace).

 

I see three ways to play your hand, in declining order of preference.

 

1. Bid 2h and rebid 3h, expecting partner to treat it as NF. In doing so, you must not rebid 3h with a 6-bagger and GF strength.

 

2. Make a negative double, then bid your suit on the three level. (I'd choose this option if your 8-count included a less-solid heart suit).

 

3. Pass, and hope partner reopens. Passing may even work out if your side is on a true misfit.