Coping with 4H Pre-emption

[Cascade]

[hv=d=s&v=e&w=s5h6djt98753ckj76&e=skq942ht87dakqcaq]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

West North East South

 -     -     -   4♥

 

 Pass  Pass  ?

 

How would you bid these hands?

 

In particular if you double with East do you bid 5♦? And then does East take further action?

 

And more importantly if you bid 4♠ does West pull? And again does East take further action?

 

I am also interested in any other approaches.

 

Thanks

[JohnnyH7]

I would X with the east hand, 5D with the west hand, pass with the east hand.

 

If east bid 4S, I think west has to pass. I think Xing with the east hand will tend to lead to better results than bidding 4S, but it could certainly work poorly.

[Blofeld]

I think I'd double as east. Wouldn't bid 4♠.

 

As West I'd bid 5♦. Then not sure if I'd make another move as East. Seems close. Probably I would, and land in 6♦-1

[hrothgar]

I (pretty much) agree with Johnny

 

From my perspective, once West decides to pass in direct seat over 4♥, he can't try to improve the contract by bidding 5♦. (5♦ should be some kind of fit showing advance)

[mikeh]

As always, tough to be objective when we can see both hands.

 

As for East, obviously the choices are 4♠ or double: pass is a very distant third.

 

I suspect that I would talk myself into 4♠ at the table, relying on my ♥ holding to infer that partner has shortness there and some probable length: even if my ♥ get overruffed by N, it might be with a natural trump trick: and I'd be very worried that a double would miss a 5-3 fit...

 

And I suspect that as West, I'd pass 4♠: I'd be more likely to pull if my minors were KJ10xxxx Jxxx.

 

So I think, but cannot be certain, that I'd reach 4♠... a godawful contract

 

If I bid double as east, west has a clear 5♦ call as I see it, and east should pass.. sure he has extras but I'd stay fixed (if 6♦) is cold: thinking that I dodged a possible 4♠ bullet already.

[Cascade]

From my perspective, once West decides to pass in direct seat over 4♥, he can't try to improve the contract by bidding 5♦. (5♦ should be some kind of fit showing advance)

Maybe this is normal I am not sure.

 

It seems to me though that it is inefficient.

 

My experience is that I will often bid 4♠ on this type of auction not completely sure that spades is the right denomination.

 

If we then make partner's only options to raise spades we are going to be in a bad space.

 

4NT = RKCB (I assume) so we are raising spades

 

5♣/♦/♥ = show a fit

 

5♠ = raise obviously

 

So we have five bids to show a fit and nothing to say we have a suit but were too weak to introduce it over the opponents pre-emption.

[zasanya]

Seems a good hand for Fishbein lovers .Dbl= penalty.4♠=natural and tolerance for other suits.So 4♠ by E 5♦ by W.. Slam needs 2 significant cards from P so chickenhearted pessimists like me pass but lionheared optimists like most of my Partners bid 6

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4S, unlucky.

 

Dbl is for take out, or a very strong hand,

do I pass / bid on (5S), if I hear 5C / 5D?

The suit is not bad, but not that good, so if I

pass, I will have the feeling that I should have

partner told about my 5 card suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

As West I had not liked to bid 4 Spade, but I still had. My pds tend to bid 5 Club with xx,xxx,xxxx,xxxx. And even opps. xx,xx,xxxx,xxxxx 5 Club may not be better.

 

In the good old days, without a bidding box, it had been easy:

4 ♠? for this hand and 4 ♠! for real one-suiters. :(

 

I had passed 4 Spade surely as East.

 

I like your suggestions for the later bidding, maybe I will imply them in my partnership agreements.

[hotShot]

This hand shows, that established partnerships have advantages.

 

Any suit bid by east at the 4 level should be self sustained. So i would not bid ♠.

In this case we hold 3♥, so it is not possible that partner would prefer a penalty dbl, but an agreement here should allow partner to change the dbl to penalty.

Opps high preempts are often made to keep us from something. So we must have a way do to distinguish between strong and weak hands. In this situation some sort of Lebensohl comes in mind.

So west could show a weak (minor suit) hand by bidding 4NT first, forcing partner to bid 5♣. A direct 5♦ shows a better hand.

I don't think that west is strong enough to show a good hand here, so bidding ends in 5♦.

Any followup form east, will now ask for a specific first round control.

e.g. in this case:

after - - 4♥ x p 5♦ p

5♥,♠ and 6♣ asks for first round control in this suit

5NT can be used to check the quality of the trump suit.

[Cascade]

Any suit bid by east at the 4 level should be self sustained. So i would not bid ♠.

Again I think this is inefficient. There are a million broken suits that need to be bid.

 

 

So we must have a way do to distinguish between strong and weak hands. In this situation some sort of Lebensohl comes in mind.

So west could show a weak (minor suit)  hand by bidding 4NT first, forcing partner to bid 5♣. A direct 5♦ shows a better hand.

 

We use 4NT here as two places to play from both sides of the table.

 

The overcaller bids 4NT to show a five-five two-suited hand. Both minors over 4♥ but can be minor and hearts over 4♠.

 

4NT in response to a takeout double also shows two suits but not necessarily 5-5 so that we can negotiate a fit at the five-level and so that doubler can double with off-shape hands and reduce the risk of playing a silly fit (or is that a non-fit) at the five-level.

[hotShot]

Any suit bid by east at the 4 level should be self sustained. So i would not bid ♠.

Again I think this is inefficient. There are a million broken suits that need to be bid.

If your own suit is not long enough, you can always dbl first.

After a 4M preempt, you don't have much options left. Of cause the is a dependenciy with opponents bidding style. Im used to weaker 4level openings, if opps play them solid to strong one i might choose a different style.

 

Opponents bidding this

xx

DJTxxxxx

xx

x

need a different treatment than those with

x

AKQxxxxx

Axxx

-

I've seen both kinds of 4level openings from opps.

[whereagles]

4♠ seems clear to me, on grounds that pard rates to be short in hearts.

 

Now pard will have to decide whether to correct to 5♦ or not. I think this is the real problem, and I don't see an easy way out. By the way, 5♦ shouldn't be some cue in support of spades. That's what 5♥ is for.

 

So, pull to 5♦ or not?

 

Pros:

- probably a better fit than spades, which were bid under great pressure

- limits losses if the spade suit is weak

- give the hand a chance to take a couple of tricks, which wouldn't happen in a spade contract

 

Cons:

- 1 level higher

- easier to be doubled

- pard might have a good spade suit

 

Matter of inspiration, mood and, above all, LUCK!

[Finch]

Seems a good hand for Fishbein lovers .Dbl= penalty.4♠=natural and tolerance for other suits.So 4♠ by E 5♦ by W.. Slam needs 2 significant cards from P so chickenhearted pessimists like me pass but lionheared optimists like most of my Partners bid 6

If double is penalties, and 4S shows tolerance for the other suits, what are you supposed to bid over 4H holding

 

AKQxxxxx

xx

Kx

x

 

?

[Codo]

As far as I remember, you must bid 5 ♠. And because of this major defect, Fishbein is not very common any more.

[mcphee]

There is no doubt I would bid 4S and expect the other hand to pass. I think it would be a sin to bid 5D over 4S and think it should be a cue bid in support of S. Passing 4H to me is losing bridge. Maybe I will get lucky and the opps will dble and save me.

 

Pre-empts work, and it got me here. But I will live another day. I could never bring myself to play dble for penalties. Incidentally, double of 4H on this particular hand is surely not a good result , they have at least 9 tricks, maybe 10 when 5D is cold.

[Free]

I'd probably bid 4♠ with the East hand, and West should probably pull with 5♦ (or 4NT if that won't lead to complications).

 

4-level preempts work...

[bid_em_up]

4NT in response to a takeout double also shows two suits but not necessarily 5-5 so that we can negotiate a fit at the five-level and so that doubler can double with off-shape hands and reduce the risk of playing a silly fit (or is that a non-fit) at the five-level.

 

Seems to me you have answered your own question.....and that your partnership should handle accordingly.

 

4H p p X p 4N p 5D all pass

 

 

You have the values to play or defend. It is unlikely that partner will convert to penalty but you will not be unhappy if he does. If partner bids 5C, it rates to be a 5+ card suit, since he shd strive to bid 4S on any appropriate hand (his hand should bid 4S on 3+ spades unless he has a much longer minor suit or two reasonable minor suits). He does, so bids 4N and all is well.

[hrothgar]

For the record, I favor the following auction

 

(4♥) - P - (P) - X

(P) - 5♦ - All pass

[MickyB]

For the record, I favor the following auction

 

(4♥) - P - (P) - X

(P) - 5♦ - All pass

Me too, assuming it is your weaker way to reach 5♦ (weaker than 4NT pulling 5♣ to 5♦)

[Cascade]

4NT in response to a takeout double also shows two suits but not necessarily 5-5 so that we can negotiate a fit at the five-level and so that doubler can double with off-shape hands and reduce the risk of playing a silly fit (or is that a non-fit) at the five-level.

 

Seems to me you have answered your own question.....and that your partnership should handle accordingly.

 

4H p p X p 4N p 5D all pass

Actually the hand came up in my teaching session not in my partnership bidding or play.

 

I was particularly curious about when you would pull to 5♦ over a 4♠ overcall. Maybe I should have presented the problem like that but I was also interested in the immediate action from the East hand.

 

Even so I am not completely sure what is best from the East hand and then if that is 4♠ when it is best to pull.

 

I am sure what our methods are but still not what judgement to use here.

[bid_em_up]

Actually the hand came up in my teaching session not in my partnership bidding or play.

 

I was particularly curious about when you would pull to 5♦ over a 4♠ overcall.  Maybe I should have presented the problem like that but I was also interested in the immediate action from the East hand.

 

Even so I am not completely sure what is best from the East hand and then if that is 4♠ when it is best to pull. 

 

I am sure what our methods are but still not what judgement to use here.

Oh. In that case, I would concern myself more with teaching East to double with this hand than worrying about teaching West when to pull 4S to 5D.

 

The West hand should NEVER (imo) override East's decision to bid 4S since his hand is an unknown. East could quite easily be AKQxxxx xx x AQx (a more appropriate 4S call) and pulling to 5D on the West hand can only serve to prevent partner from making similar calls again. East did not ask for partners participation in determining the contract, and West should respect that. End of story.

 

I fail to see why so many appear to believe they need to bid 4S (thereby making a unilateral bidding decision) instead of doubling with their 20 pt. hand. The only possible explanation is the often (ill)-quoted school of thought that says "always bid 4S over 4H". If you choose this methodology, then sometimes you simply must accept the accompanying ridiculous results and move on to the next board.

 

As always, jmoo.

[Codo]

There are good reasons to bid 4 Spade:

1. This is the only way to play this contract.

2. PD tends to have some length in Club. The chances are great, that he will bid 5 Club.

And if you compare, what you need from Pd to make 4 Spade and what you need to make 5 Club, you better bid 4 Spade.

[pclayton]

I'd bid 4♠ with the east hand. What it lacks in a great suit it makes up in extra strength. How can I possible double with this? What am I supposed to do over 5♣?

 

I really don't know what I'd do if 4♠ gets whacked.

 

Once again, I am very much against folks posting both hands atthe outset of a thread. :)

[Cascade]

Sorry about that Phil.

 

I was more interested in the general situation rather than the specific hand.

 

That is what criteria would you use to pull 4♠ having already passed.

 

And what criteria you would use to bid again whether you have doubled or bid 4♠ initially.

 

While the particular hand I posted was interesting for me it was motivation to think about the general situation rather than just a problem in itself.

 

Thanks to all who have responded. Of course I am still interested in further opinions.