Takeout double of 3NT?

[MickyB]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sajxxhqtxxdqjxxcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

P-(3♣)-P-(3NT)

 

I briefly considered doubling then passed, but later heard that a good player had doubled on this auction. What do you think?[/hv]

[whereagles]

I think he had too much wine.

[mikeh]

to me, double would be penalty oriented, altho I admit I cannot recall the last time I saw this auction. Whichever way it is meant to be, I don't think I have the hand for it, white v white.

[000002]

yes, it can be t/o when opp is white and we are VUL.

[whereagles]

yes, it can be t/o when opp is white and we are VUL.

Well.. if 3NT can be a psych with club support, then double must show cards. The good thing is will also show club shortage because opps have all the clubs! B)

[pclayton]

I will double if I am scheduled for lethal injection the next day and I want my last hours on earth to be exciting.

 

Otherwise I pass.

[jdonn]

I will double if I am scheduled for lethal injection the next day and I want my last hours on earth to be exciting.

 

Otherwise I pass.

If I was scheduled for lethal injection the next day and wanted some last day excitement, you can bet I would be surrounded by females and not playing bridge. Please tell me at least you would be breaking out your wines!

[Finch]

Unless the dealing gods have been in action, I recognise this hand and the 'good player' was probably my partner - particularly as I believe you know the pair we were playing.

 

The vulnerability is wrong, you are at favourable, not at love all (I'm not sure if he would have doubled at love all, I'll ask him).

 

My regular partnerships all play (3x) P (3NT) double as take-out of x, passed hand or not, though of course second seat can pass the double. As mikeh says, when is the last time you were dealt a penalty double of 3NT in this auction?

 

Bearing in mind that 3NT is usually based on a fit (and sometimes on nothing but a fit), and a lot of the rest of the time has a running suit of its own, it would be extremely rare for a 'penalty' double to be stacked in their suit. So we take that one step further and say that double shows shortage in their suit and indeed a typical take-out type of hand. It usually has to be a pretty good hand, as partner is limited and RHO can be strong. The given hand here would be too light for the action except that you're a passed hand and at favourable, so it's more looking for a good save against 3NT with a minor upside of defending 3NTx on occasion.

 

You can no longer double on strong balanced hands that have 3NT off in their own hand, nor with a running suit unless very strong - but the former are extremely rare and the latter usually end up having to bid their suit after they run from 3NTx anyway. Anyway, we find the take-out double type hand is quite common, and a 'penalty' double that can't double anway extremely rare. As my partner said, he'd rather play the hand than guess what suit to lead against 3NT.

 

By the way, on the hand in question it's hard to say whether the double 'worked' or not. You had to find the right lead to beat 3NT (a low spade), which was indeed found at the other table for +200. However, partner bids 4S over your double. This is doubled, and should have been one off, but the defence was not totally obvious so it was let through, but then partner had a brainstorm and went one off anyway (this wasn't my highest standard day of bridge by a long way).

[MickyB]

Thanks Frances, I've changed the vul above. Yes, I knew it was you and Jeffery, but I didn't know which way around you were sitting. Your thoughts are pretty much along the lines of mine, but I found it difficult to evaluate how often it would run into RHO holding a (misfitting) monster. 3NT made at my table when I led a diamond (maybe this should have been a lead problem as well).

[whereagles]

when is the last time you were dealt a penalty double of 3NT in this auction?

If you play against me, you'll get to have a 15-18 hcp hand on that seat very often B)

[Finch]

when is the last time you were dealt a penalty double of 3NT in this auction?

If you play against me, you'll get to have a 15-18 hcp hand on that seat very often B)

As a passed hand????

 

More to the general point, how often will this 15-18 hcp hand not be a take-out double of the opening bid? Or do you psyche the 3NT response without either high cards or a fit?

[pclayton]

I will double if I am scheduled for lethal injection the next day and I want my last hours on earth to be exciting.

 

Otherwise I pass.

If I was scheduled for lethal injection the next day and wanted some last day excitement, you can bet I would be surrounded by females and not playing bridge. Please tell me at least you would be breaking out your wines!

You are playing bridge in the grotto of the Playboy mansion. The lingerie model on your left opens 3♣....

 

Apologies to members of the better sex reading this........

[whereagles]

> As a passed hand????

 

Didn't notice it was a passed hand. My bad.

 

 

> More to the general point, how often will this 15-18 hcp hand not be a take-out double

> of the opening bid?

 

Only if 3NT is not a psyche and is based on a running side suit. Still, even with a take-out shape, I'd say you need those 15+ hcp to double 3NT. To do it with 12-14 or so seems a bit risky. After all, 3NT won't be psyche ALL the time.. B)

 

In the case at hand I find the double somewhat risky, despite the good shape. If pard has 2 clubs and didn't double 3♣, then he's broke. If he has 3 clubs then he probably hasn't got a 15-17 hand (with that he might have tried 3NT himself).

 

So chances are pard has some balanced hand with at the very best 14 hcp. Opposite that hand my 'quacks' don't seem to be the hottest thing around, so pass is probably better.

[000002]

special hand like :KJxx xxxxxx KJx

[Joe de Balliol]

Skid Simon had a rule: Your hand doesn't get any better just because you think an opponent has psyched. If RHO has a 5 count, partner will have enough to bid. If RHO has his bid, you'll be very glad to have shut up.

 

But then I play with most of my partners that you protect light but need a lot to bid in 2nd seat.

 

J

[MickyB]

Skid Simon had a rule: Your hand doesn't get any better just because you think an opponent has psyched. If RHO has a 5 count, partner will have enough to bid. If RHO has his bid, you'll be very glad to have shut up.

I don't think RHO has psyched, vul against not, to keep a passed hand out of the auction. I think RHO is likely to be bidding partly based on a fit, and that we are likely to have a cheap save or possibly even a double game swing - give them 7 club tricks and 2 aces.

[Finch]

If RHO has a 5 count, partner will have enough to bid. If RHO has his bid, you'll be very glad to have shut up.

I'm afraid that's simply not true.

 

The purpose of the double is not primarily to reveal RHO's psyche, it is to compete - in the same way as with any other take-out double. Let's give partner some pile of rubbish, something like

 

xxx

Axx

xxxxx

xx

 

3NT is boringly +630, while 4D is probably -300, -500 at worst.

 

or

 

Q10xxxx

Axx

xx

xx

 

3NT is off on a heart lead and a spade switch (neither of which is obvious), while 4S is likely to make if they can't find a club lead to the ace and a heart switch (also not obvious).

 

Obviously I can also easily construct hands where doubling works out badly in various ways, but the point is that there are many constructions where you want to act, and revealing RHO's psyche is only one of them - indeed, if RHO has out-and-out psyched partner can now double 3NT if he wants.

[pigpenz]

I myself generally wouldnt double with the hand but did a bridgebroswer search on the following 2 auctions

 

3minor pass 3nt double

 

3minor pass 3nt pass

pass double

 

and it brought up about 300 hand where this auction happened in 4million database set and it it showed that generally it turned out to be a winning thing, for whatever you want to do with that :P

[whereagles]

You mean, a sacrifice turned out to be a winner in the long run?

[pigpenz]

You mean, a sacrifice turned out to be a winner in the long run?

just on the hands that it was able to bring up for those 2 auctions...now granted I just did a search by auction didnt set any contraints on hand patterns or hcp for the doubler.

[pclayton]

I think doubling here automatically assumes that 3N is a lock, and that clubs are running. With my stiff club, I think thats far from obvious.

 

Frequently, RHO will hold essentially a strong NT with 3 or 4 clubs. But the odd are are more likely that RHO has 2 clubs, and the 3-1 or 4-1 club split will be a nasty surprise. RHO also understands the value of bidding a sketchy vul game.

 

I think double could push them into an impossible 4N or 5♣. But on balance, I hate giving up -300 or -500 against a plus at IMPs.