majors after 2NT opening

[drdon]

Hi, Happy Easter/Passover

 

Can anyone make a full suggestion as to how to handle hands with both majors over 2nt Openings (assuming 20-22 or thereabouts)

 

We play typically puppet stayman (best for matchpoints perhaps), Jac, Tex, 3S is a relay to 3NT and a direct 3NT is minor suit stayman(therefore guaranteeing both minors.

 

For example, AK109x KJxx A xxx.....what is your bidding plan?

 

Thnx

[Free]

Hi, welcome to the forum! :D

 

Depending on the system, you have a problem with such hand, or no problems at all.

 

Playing standard puppet stayman makes this hand a problem, and since you didn't care for a solution in your bidding scheme you're stuck. With a normal stayman you can 'smolen' after 2NT-3♣-3♦, with puppet stayman many people around here (Belgium) use 2NT-3♠ to show 5♠ and 4♥. This solves that problem, but limits your possibilities for other hands. The minor suit stayman is usually included in puppet stayman (after the response to 3♣, 4♣ bid asks about minors).

 

You can always use another version of puppet stayman, which improves it a lot and can still be used with your current structure. It also includes smolen rebids. I've posted this scheme in non-natural system discussions a while ago, if you search for it you should find it ;)

[tonedown]

I use the Soloff structure, where 3♣ is normal puppet, 3 ♦/♥ are transfers

3♠ is an unconditional transfer to 3NT, TP or looking for minorslams

3 NT shows a hand with 5♠ 4 ♥ , GF but no slam interest.

[mikeh]

How about:

 

3♣ stayman, but the response structure is a little more complex than 'standard':

 

3♦ no 4 card major, may have 5♠

3♥ 4♥, may have 4♠

3♠ 4♠

3N 5♥

 

Over the 3♦ response, responder bids:

 

3♥ (normal bid): checking for 5♠ or on way to 3N etc

3♠ smolen: 4♠ 5♥ gf

3N smolen, 4♥, 5♠ gf

 

This allows responder to use stayman with 4-5 or 5-4 in the majors, and thus preserves smolen while allowing responder to find opener's 5 card major if he has one.

 

Incidentally, over opener's 3♥ response to 3♣, 3♠ by responder denies 4♠ and puppets to 3N. 3N by responder is passable but promises 4♠ (4N would be the same, but a quantitative raise as well.

 

Truth in advertising forces me to confess that this scheme, which I think is on the whole far better than puppet, did not work on a recent hand.

 

I held KQ9x KQ98x K765 void.

 

Partner opened 2N and bid 3♥ in response to stayman.

 

I used exclusion keycard and, on learning we had all the relevant keycards, gambled 7♥

 

I was unlucky, I think, in that partner had 4=4=3=2 shape with AJxx AJxx Axx AQ

 

They did not lead a ♣ and there was no minor squeeze so down we went when 7♠ is cold on any non 5-0 break.

 

Our methods did not allow us to find the 4-4 fit after stayman. Puppet would. This is ltiterally the first hand I can remember (and I have played a lot of bridge) in which puppet was demonstrably superior to any form of smolen.

[NickToll]

Consider using Puppet 3♣ with a small modification on opener's rebids:

- 3♦: one or both 4card majors

- 3♥: no 4card majors

- 3♠: 5 spades (here 4♥ is slam try in spades)

- 3NT: 5 hearts (here 4♦ is transfer to hearts)

 

Swapping 3♥ and 3NT meanings allows you to rebid 3♠ after 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥ with 5spades and 4hearts, retaining the ability to play 3NT when it's right to do so. You can follow this route also with a 5-5 limited to game: if partner bids 3NT over 3♠, you simply follow with 4♥.

 

Other hands based on major suits can be handled in "standard" fashion:

- 5hearts + 4spades: 3♦ (transfer), follow with 3♠

- 5hearts + 5spades, slam hand: 3♥ (transfer), follow with 4♥ (forcing)

[kgr]

I used to play Niemeyer (kind of puppet) where 3NT showed 5 card S and 4 card H. We stopped playing that because we forgot to often...and when we remembered we were not sure anymore that partner intended it like that.

On the given hand I would probably transfer to S, ask aces and bid 7 H if we have all aces.

[luke warm]

I used to play Niemeyer (kind of puppet) where 3NT showed 5 card S and 4 card H. We stopped playing that because we forgot to often...and when we remembered we were not sure anymore that partner intended it like that.

On the given hand I would probably transfer to S, ask aces and bid 7 H if we have all aces.

that's exactly what i'd do, but there's a danger opener might play me for 6/5... my first thought was to just bid 7nt ;)

[1eyedjack]

There are loads of 2N-3C schemes out there for investigating major suit fits at the game level, most of which ensure that opener gets to declare. My personal favourite is:

 

2N-3C-3D = <5xS and <4xH

2N-3C-3H = >3xH and <4xS (then 3S relay asking initially about 5th H)

2N-3C-3S = 5xS

2N-3C-3N = 4-4-?-? (then transfers, or 4C slam try relay)

 

After 2N-3C-3D:

.... 3H = relay asking initially about Spades (steps 3xS, 2xS, 4xS)

.....3S = 4-5-?-? (this can wrong-side the contract in Spades - about the only time)

 

On the example hand, I would start with this structure and carry on relaying up to about 6S. Hopefully by then will know what to do.

[jdeegan]

3S is a relay to 3NT and a direct 3NT is minor suit stayman(therefore guaranteeing both minors.

:) I am curious. Why does 3♠ xfer to 3NT, and 3NT show minors? It looks to me like one gets an extra bidding step by reversing the bids, which is the normal practice.

[1eyedjack]

3S is a relay to 3NT and a direct 3NT is minor suit stayman(therefore guaranteeing both minors.

:angry: I am curious. Why does 3♠ xfer to 3NT, and 3NT show minors? It looks to me like one gets an extra bidding step by reversing the bids, which is the normal practice.

I agree, the benefits are largely illusory.

 

The argument is put forward that if you include in the 3S response any hand that wants to play in 3N, AND IN ADDITION some slam-going hands, and reserve a direct 3N response for some other slam-going hands, then you have gained some bidding space over those who use 3N strictly to play.

 

There are two downsides that they fail to consider (possibly other issues):

 

The first is that 3N is a compulsory bid over 3S and therefore conveys no information. If in response to 3S you are allowed to bid 3N to express a contract suggestion but with freedom to bid beyond 3N (over 3S) on suitable hands, then you gain on some hands compared with those who are obliged to bid 3N.

 

The second is the higher frequency of a lead-directing double of 3S on hands where the player just wants to play in 3N.

[mr1303]

And thirdly, when the auction goes

 

2NT P 3NT P

4C

 

when the 3NT bidder forgot the system.

[Miron]

Quite usefull:

2NT - p -

3♣= puppet

3♦= transfer to ♥ (can have 5♥-4♠)

3♥= transfer to ♠ (cannot have 5♠-4♥)

3♠= 5♠-4♥ (no chance to bid it otherwise)

minors can be bid with 3♣:

2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ - 4♣♦

or directly.

 

I'm quite happy with it.

Another nice feature is:

2NT - p - 3♦ - p

3♥= 3♥

4♥= 4♥

other= 4♥ and cuebid (nice hand)

3♠= 2♥ and 4+♠

3NT= 2♥ and 3♠

if you have weak hand jump directly to 4♥ or you can try 3♦ (this is the disadvantage). But you gain more for founding good ♥ fit for slams, or 4-4 ♠ fit easily.

[1eyedjack]

Quite usefull:

2NT - p -

3♣= puppet

3♦= transfer to ♥ (can have 5♥-4♠)

3♥= transfer to ♠ (cannot have 5♠-4♥)

3♠= 5♠-4♥ (no chance to bid it otherwise)

minors can be bid with 3♣:

2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ - 4♣♦

or directly.

 

I'm quite happy with it.

It has the benefit of popularity and simplicity, and is certainly playable.

It is however in my opinion significantly inferior in theory to the other methods posted earlier in this thread, in one particular respect:

The other methods include 5-4-?-? and 4-5-?-? hands within the 3C response, where you reserve an entire, precious response (3S) to one of these hands, while you also include the other in the 3D response which can be made more efficient by excluding it.

 

Another nice feature is:

2NT - p - 3♦ - p

3♥= 3♥

4♥= 4♥

other= 4♥ and cuebid (nice hand)

3♠= 2♥ and 4+♠

3NT= 2♥ and 3♠

if you have weak hand jump directly to 4♥ or you can try 3♦ (this is the disadvantage). But you gain more for founding good ♥ fit for slams, or 4-4 ♠ fit easily.

I had some difficulty understanding this part of the post. I got as far as "(nice hand)" and then started losing it.

Incidentally I think I prefer (assuming red suit transfers) 2N-3D-3S = 5-2-?-? (and 2N-3H-3N = 2-5-3-3). You get a bit high when responder had weak takeout but gain when you find the fit in other major (and anyway 3S may be playable if responder has a weak takeout into H).