2/1 GF or Jacoby2NT

[sceptic]

I chose to bid 2NT over pards 1 Heart opener instead of 2 clubs game forcing

 

Reasons

 

I both are GF to us and it gives me a chance to see a short suit and I had extra values to compensate (and good hearts) for the lack of the 4th promised heart

 

as the bidding went, I would like comments on my 4 diamond bid (can some one tell me does this guarantee the Ace and is it worth bidding to show more slam interest

 

Do you think pard should bid 4 spades to show control, rather than 4 heart

 

And do you think I should have bid 4NT

 

or do you think I should have bid totally differently

 

here is the hand

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sk82haq8764dqck54&w=sqj643hd96432ca92&e=st97ht952dj875c86&s=sa5hkj3daktcqjt73]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♥    Pass  2NT

 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♠

 Pass  4♣    Pass  4♦

 Pass  4♥    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[Sigi_BC84]

as the bidding went, I would like comments on my 4 diamond bid (can some one tell me does this guarantee the Ace and is it worth bidding to show more slam interest

Since p has shown ♦ shortness already 4♦ clearly shows first-round control.

 

Do you think pard should bid 4 spades to show control, rather than 4 heart

Yes.

 

And do you think I should have bid 4NT

Yes.

 

--Sigi

[luke warm]

i don't like 2nt.. with me it'd go

 

1h : 2c

2h : 3h

3s : 4d (3s=forced cue, 4d shows slam interest)

4h : 4s (4h shows nothing else to say, 4s shows something else to say)

6h (shows a club control imo)

[inquiry]

With a reasonable five card suit, i prefer to bid my suit GF rather than 2NT. It helps everyone with hand evaluation, who knows, we maybe able to figure out that 7♣ is better than 7♥, etc, but not if we start 2NT.

 

My suggested auction, therefore would be

 

1♥-2♣

2♥-3♥

3♠-3NT* = if you play serious 3NT

4♣-4NT

5♣-5♦

6♥-pass

 

4C = control not shortness in parnters suit could be club queen too

5C = 1 or 4 keycards

5D = queen ask

6H = heart queen, no ♦K (else 5D), no club queen to go along with king (5nt)

 

if you don't play serious 3NT, then just cue-bid 4♦ over 3♠ and partner will know how valuable the ♣king is since you bid 2♣ first.

 

Back to your questions.

 

as the bidding went, I would like comments on my 4 diamond bid (can some one tell me does this guarantee the Ace and is it worth bidding to show more slam interest

 

It does show ♦Ace, or if you play it, last train to clarksville.

 

Do you think pard should bid 4 spades to show control, rather than 4 heart

 

Your partner has no idea how well his hand fits since you haven't bid his suits. He has cooperated already. If 4♦ is last train, he not obligated to bid on however, however here with good hearts, a sixth heart, and a still undisclosed ♠K he should bid on.

 

And do you think I should have bid 4NT

 

IF you are going to bid 4NT do so over 4♣. Your 4♦ was a chance to stop if partner had Jxx AQxxxx Q Kxx, true not real likely. The confusion over where source of tricks is coming from (diamond ruffs are not extra tricks as you are ruffing in long trump hand) is the problem.

[Winstonm]

Unless you are balanced without at least a decent suit, it is better to start off bidding your suit - where you live. This helps partner evaluate secondary honors in that suit as worth more than isolated secondary honors. I neither care for the 3D or 4D bids - the singleton Q adds a degree of value to Kxx opposite, and opposte what should be x, the AKx loses some value.

 

IMO, Jacoby 2N is a poor structure overall; hence, problem like this.

 

Winston

[pclayton]

To have the ability to bid 2♣ should be one of the reasons that you are playing 2/1 in the first place.

 

To start with Jacoby with this hand tends to make the auction unilateral and establishes captaincy pretty quickly. With this balanced hand, I think you want to convey strength by first showing clubs, and then supporting hearts.

 

We would bid it (I think):

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 3♥

3N - 4♦

4♥ - 4♠

5♣ - 6♥

 

The only real non standard call of the auction is 3N, which is a spade cue, (3♠ would be a non-serious slam try).

[paulg]

I prefer to keep Jacoby simple and always have 4-card support, implying that no other strain is possible, although this is not the reason for the poor result on this board.

 

As Peter says, this is a much easier hand in 2/1 as you can bid clubs and then raise hearts and it will be forcing. In SAYC (or Acol) you either have to guess over the 2♥ rebid and either jump into Blackwood or create a force with 3♦.

 

Paul

[Echognome]

I also prefer the 2/1 with 3 card support. That being said, if my hand had one less club and one more heart, I would have started with 2NT.

 

I agree with the others that playing serious (or frivolous) 3NT would help.

 

Playing your methods, someone has to take the push and it's close on the hand who should have done so. It seems that you both took the conservative action and that's why you were in game. It happens.

 

If you were playing with a regular partner, then I think you should discuss your 2/1 auctions and also what type of hands go through jacoby.

[EricK]

I would have bid my ♣ rather than agree ♥ straight away. This loks like a slam hand and I want to find the best slam (i.e. best suit and best level).

 

But I have a question for you:

Why were you so desperate to stay out of slam?

 

You have 18 points and a fit opposite an opening bid, and partner has not given you any reason to think the 5 level is unsafe. And yet you gave up at the 4 level.

 

♠xxxx

♥AQxxx

♦x

♣AKx

 

Is enough for a grand slam and I don't think partner would have bid this hand any differently.

 

When you have a strong hand opposite an opening bid, you should actively look for a slam, not look for excuses to stay out of one.

[hotShot]

You hold 18 HCP, so your hand is not only GF, it is worth a slam invitation. No bid below 4♥ has realy been an invitation to slam.

Partners 4♥ is a sign of, because he has no extra strength.

It is your duty to keep the auction alive. Opener should not bid 4♠, because he is not strong enough to invite to slam.

Your partner showed a top honor in ♣, so all you need to know now is the number of missing keycards. Your 4♦ cue is useless to your partner, so you should bid 4NT over 4♣.

[Winstonm]

A pickup partnership tends to blast to slam - a regular partnership should have more subtle abilities.

 

My concept of this auction would be:

 

1H-2C

2H-3H

3S*-3N** *Mild slam interest due to controls/shape/club fit. **Strong hand.

4C*-4N** *Secondary club fit. **No need for further subtleties.

5C*-5D** * 1 or 4 key cards. **Queen of trump ask.

5S*-6H *Queen of hearts + spade king.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2NT is fine, as long as you

dont require 4 card support.

 

Over 4C from opener simply

bid 4NT, you know, 4C shows

either the Ace or the King, since

it is quite unlikely that opner holds

2 single, i.e. your club suit is a

source of tricks and you control the

other suits, if required you will have

a fast discard on the King of diamond.

 

Keep it simple, show your fit direct

and take the leap.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArcLight]

Jacoby 2NT requires 4 card support (unless you have some agreement to the contary) so I don't agree at all with the 2NT bid. You had a perfectly good alternative 2♣

 

Same for Limit raises, 4 card support is expected. There may be exceptions, but its a pretty solid rule.

 

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 3♥

4♣ - 4♦

4NT - 5♦ (1430 3 key cards). Off 1 key card, probably the Ace of Spades, thats ok, the lead comes up to me and Clubs will likely be a source of tricks for discards. Maybe 6 hearts + 5 Clubs + 1 Dime = 12 tricks.

 

6♥.

[whereagles]

The more I think of it, the more I realize the world would be much better off without jacoby 2NT...

[blackshoe]

The more I think of it, the more I realize the world would be much better off without jacoby 2NT...

Oh, I dunno. I don't think the problem is Jacoby 2NT per se, it's the way most people play it.

 

Max Hardy was of the opinion that 2NT should guarantee four card support and at least 15 HCP, and thus be a slam try, not just a minimum game force. I agree with him.

[luke warm]

and so do i ... i also agree with him on the over/under j/s and many other things

[Kalvan14]

I've a strong dislike for 2NT Jacoby, which IMHO is no more than a necessary evil, and must be used to cater with specific hands only (balanced or 3-suited hands, with 4 cards fits, and lacking 5-card suits or 4-card suits headed by 2 top honors).

 

I'd never consider 2NT for the posted hand (why go out of your way when you have a perfectly good 2♣ bid, which establishes a GF, introduces a significant source of tricks and keeps the bid level low?).

 

IMO, the slam should have been bid even starting with a (horrible) 2NT.

If 4♦ is last train, opener has enough extras to keep the bid open, and in any case advancer should consider the 5-level safe. Best thing would have been to ask RKC after opener's cue bid (4♣).

[whereagles]

> I don't think the problem is Jacoby 2NT per se, it's the way most

> people play it.

 

True. But given the fact that..

 

1. The standard follow-ups are very, very badly designed.

 

2. There is no other well-known scheme that is sound (Martel-Stansby follow-ups are sound, but not known to all).

 

3. J2NT isn't even a necessary bid (you can bid a 2/1 followed by support at the 2/3 level).

 

..I would say SCRAP IT.

 

 

> Max Hardy was of the opinion that 2NT should guarantee four

> card support and at least 15 HCP, and thus be a slam try, not

> just a minimum game force. I agree with him.

 

I don't, because those requirements would make it show up once in a blue moon. The 2NT jump bid takes away a lot of bidding space, so it has to show a well-defined and reasonably frequent hand. It doesn't matter what hand exactly, but to bid it with any 4-card support and 12+ is a recipe for bad slam bidding. Especially if you use unsound methods like the standard ones.

 

I say it again: SCRAP J2NT and live happily ever after ;)

[keylime]

I'm a firm believer in never supressing your five card suits. I start at 2♣. Pard will not know what to do over 1M-2NT with a 15-17 count with unknown shortage; however over 1M-2♣ if their shortage is in one of the other two suits their bidding will be much clearer to you.

[luke warm]

> Max Hardy was of the opinion that 2NT should guarantee four card support and at least 15 HCP, and thus be a slam try, not just a minimum game force. I agree with him.

 

I don't, because those requirements would make it show up once in a blue moon.

so what? all other hand types with 4pc support can also be bid, why does it matter if a 16+ any shape bid is only used once in a while? if all ranges and shapes are covered, i don't see why scrapping it is so good

 

maybe you can give an example of a few hand types w/ 4 card support and show how you bid them... then we'll see what the hardy bid would be, compare, etc

[whereagles]

I don't, because those requirements would make it show up once in a blue moon.

> so what? all other hand types with 4pc support can also be bid, why does it matter if a 16+

> any shape bid is only used once in a while? if all ranges and shapes are covered, i don't see

> why scrapping it is so good

 

It is good because..

1. then you could use 1M-2NT for something more frequent and useful (candidates abound)

2. pard won't have to memorize a 1M-2NT sequence that never comes out

 

 

> maybe you can give an example of a few hand types w/ 4 card support and show how you bid

> them... then we'll see what the hardy bid would be, compare, etc

 

What exactly do you have in mind?

[mike777]

I read this comment about 2nt, esp stuff like Bergen 2NT(4 card support) being too rare to be of use when I first came to the forum.

 

I was surprised to find that at the table it comes up often enough to be very helpful. I do not miss the natural bid of 2nt over a major at all. I still got:

1Major=3nt and

1Major=4c to show strong balanced hand types.

 

With that being said I bid 2c here with only 3 trumps. That is what 2/1 g/f is for.

[inquiry]

I read this comment about 2nt, esp stuff like Bergen 2NT(4 card support) being too rare to be of use when I first came to the forum.

 

I was surprised to find that at the table it comes up often enough to be very helpful. I do not miss the natural bid of 2nt over a major at all. I still got:

1Major=3nt and

1Major=4c to show strong balanced hand types.

 

With that being said I bid 2c here with only 3 trumps. That is what 2/1 g/f is for.

I think 2NT should TEND to promise 4+ trumps. I make the following exception to this rule. A hand with 16+ HCP and balanced pattern including 3 trumps. If I have 13-15 balanced and 3 trumps, I bid 3NT over 1M.

 

Part of this requirement is that my 2/1's are in five card+ suits when I have support for partner. This is important to aid partner in counting trick later in the auction after I show support.

[mike777]

I read this comment about 2nt, esp stuff like Bergen 2NT(4 card support) being too rare to be of use when I first came to the forum.

 

I was surprised to find that at the table it comes up often enough to be very helpful. I do not miss the natural bid of 2nt over a major at all. I still got:

1Major=3nt and

1Major=4c to show strong balanced hand types.

 

With that being said I bid 2c here with only 3 trumps. That is what 2/1 g/f is for.

I think 2NT should TEND to promise 4+ trumps. I make the following exception to this rule. A hand with 16+ HCP and balanced pattern including 3 trumps. If I have 13-15 balanced and 3 trumps, I bid 3NT over 1M.

 

Part of this requirement is that my 2/1's are in five card+ suits when I have support for partner. This is important to aid partner in counting trick later in the auction after I show support.

yes, I use 3nt for 14-16 and 3334 shape with 3 card support and stoppers in the other suits, with anything else I tend to respond in a suit and 1Major -4C for 17+.

[Chamaco]

2. There is no other well-known scheme that is sound (Martel-Stansby follow-ups are sound, but not known to all).

 

This argument is overrated: it indeed applies to 90% of the most common conventions.

 

Think of it, for an occasional pair, even the followup after a negative double is not really defined according to a standard... :angry:

 

Just to mention a few other instances, this applies for most doubles, 2 suited overcalls, inverted minors, and even 1NT forcing sequences, and many more occasions...

 

This does not mean we should play without conventions (yes, we can claim to give up conventions as the usual paradoxical "boutade", but - quite frankly - if we are posting here on the BBF, we *know* we are never going to give up a substantial set of conventions):

it just means we should know our stuff.

 

3. J2NT isn't even a necessary bid (you can bid a 2/1 followed by support at the 2/3 level).

 

This has a lot of possible drawbacks too, both in a silent auction as well as in a contested auction.

 

There is a urgent need for a balance-of-power raise that IMMEDIATELY signals the presence of a 9 card fit.