Comedy Central censorship

[pigpenz]

Free speech....there are some that cant even accept the fact that gnostic gospels exist little along a gospel of Judas.

[luke warm]

So why they should pull the plug just because it's Islam being insulted rather than another group?

maybe cuz white, black, red, yellow, tall, short, fat, thin, clever, stupid, rich, poor (etc etc) don't generally riot, loot, and burn over newspaper cartoons... why should they treat an animated cartoon any different?

 

Free speech....there are some that cant even accept the fact that gnostic gospels exist little along a gospel of Judas

what's that got to do with free speech? of course they exist... i don't know of anyone who would object to your saying so

[the saint]

The writers of South Park insult every group without any discrimination at all. Whether or not you're white, black, red, yellow, tall, short, fat, thin, clever, stupid, rich, poor (etc etc) at some point there's been a South Park episode insulting you.

 

So why they should pull the plug just because it's Islam being insulted rather than another group?

Exactamundo.

[helene_t]

So why they should pull the plug just because it's Islam being insulted rather than another group?

Well, it was a business decision.

 

Then again, it's scary how terrorist and rioters succes in scarring those of us who believe in free speech from standing by our principles. I think Western governments should take a clear position in favor of, for example, the Danish newspaper that published those cartoons. When necesarry offer them police protection and if they get scared anyway, use public broadcast to publish those works that the terrorists have scared private media from publishing (provided it meets the public broadcast's quality criteria).

 

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

[nickf]

Exactamundo.

I havent heard that phrase since the last of the Happy Days re-runs were pulled.

 

nickf

sydney

[Impact]

[

 

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

Now that makes sense in ♠!!!

 

Of course, there is the small problem of doing that when the particular terrorist is dead and his (generic) avowed purpose was eliminating as many people as possible who fitted into his definition of enemy/infidel/unsuitable/not to be tolerated.....

 

but I take your point and agree: whatever is the stated aim of the terrorist group generally, to cave into them only encourages the terrorist activity as once successful, you go to the well again (ok not the particular suicide bomber)....

 

Certainly, in the sense that deliberate self-censorship of sensitive topics is sought, a policy decision to protect the publisher is virtually required (otherwise self-preservation suggests that many will determine that the risks are far too great). However, the risk in those circumstances, becomes that of conveying official sanction to what was only comment!

 

In short, while I agree with the sentiment I am remarkably unclear as to a mode for its practical implementation.

 

regards

[the saint]

Exactamundo.

I havent heard that phrase since the last of the Happy Days re-runs were pulled.

 

nickf

sydney

I believe it also appeared in Pulp Fiction. At some point Jules (Samuel L. Jackson) does utter the phrase:

 

Exactamundo, check out the big brains on Al!

 

If I'm in error, please feel free to correct me.

[luke warm]

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

sounds good, but how?

[mike777]

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

sounds good, but how?

Why not offer them peace and understanding, give them everything they want?

[the saint]

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

sounds good, but how?

Why not offer them peace and understanding, give them everything they want?

Yeah, by return of address. Then when we know where they live (Mr Bin Laden, Cave number 12, the Mountains, Afghanistan etc etc) :) - BOOM!! :lol:

 

Or is that the Loony Tunes way of doing it. :angry:

[helene_t]

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

sounds good, but how?

By not letting them dictate government policy. Like "we publish whatever we want and we don't care if the terrorists get mad".

 

Of course, if their only goal is to kill a bunch of innocent people, my strategy won't work.

[Badmonster]

I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

sounds good, but how?

By not letting them dictate government policy. Like "we publish whatever we want and we don't care if the terrorists get mad".

 

Of course, if their only goal is to kill a bunch of innocent people, my strategy won't work.

Your strategy doesn't work. They achieve a great deal. 6 years ago how many people drove to airports wondering if the people they were going to meet would really show up? How many people walked into train statiions wondering if they'd walk back out? How many people knew what it meant to have the last thing they said to someone was pick up the dry cleaning when they sent them off to work, and then never saw them again? Or knew what it was like to go through all the photos they had of someone they loved to pick a picture to put on a flyer and print out 50 or a 100 or a thousand flyers and put them up on every surface that would hold a flyer next to hundreds and thousands of other notices bearing pictures of people who had gone to work one morning and would never come home and it didn't matter which photo they chose or how many flyers they put up because those people who went to work one morning would never be seen anywhere by anyone ever again, except in photos?

 

Terrorism is effective. And maybe the best way to defeat it is with consideration and humanity, because apparently guns, humor and free speech will not defeat or deter it. Maybe sensitivity and decency will work better. And if it doesn't wouldn't we rather go to work and get on planes having been decent and humane?

[barmar]

People who believe that everyone's life should be dictated by a holy book (the Bible, the Koran, the Torah) are in general not going to be big fans of free speech (anyone remember the Inquisition?). So you can't really expect to win them over with words -- they're part of the reason they hate us in the first place.

[asdfg2k]

Where is is written that being decent and humane is fundamentally inconsistent with defending one's way of life?

 

Being decent and humane means that those who are targets of terrorism attempt to specifically target those who are the perpetrators and their support systems. I assure you that there are a number of people who would much prefer to eradicate the problem by obliterating entire populations - until the message gets across.

 

There is actually precedent for considering the obliteration route as more humane. Many consider the atomic bombs which effectively ended the armed conflict known as World War II as being genuinely humane. Why? Because it has been shown that if the conflict was not brought to a halt when it was, more than one million people's lives were at risk. Would you trade 50,000 of the enemy's population in return for 1 million of your own?

 

We are generally and genuinely uncomfortable discussing the trading of life. As it is somehow barbaric. This is what gives those that practice terrorism succor. They are not.

 

Use google and look up how the Russian's responded to having their diplomat kidnapped in the Middle East. Have you wondered why there are very few Russion victims of fundamentalist terrorism? They certainly didn't practice what you believe to be a decent and humane response.

 

And you make the most telling statement when you proclaim that "...if it doesn't wouldn't we rather go to work and get on planes having been decent and humane?". My answer is an emphatic "no.". If it doesn't work, we have fundamentally forfeited our way of life. And no decent and humane activity on my part will make an appropriate excuse for your descendant's loss of our way of life.

 

What is good and great about our way of life is exemplified in this discussion. Can you imagine somebody in a fundamentalist setting speaking up and requesting that they modify their tactics to be decent and humane?

 

My guess is that it would be treated as if the person had just published a cartoon depicting an image of a certain prophet.

[Badmonster]

People who believe that everyone's life should be dictated by a holy book (the Bible, the Koran, the Torah) are in general not going to be big fans of free speech (anyone remember the Inquisition?). So you can't really expect to win them over with words -- they're part of the reason they hate us in the first place.

I don't think this is entirely true. There are many wonderful tolerant and religious Christians Muslims and Jews. Religion doesn't inspire exclusion and vitriol. It does however make a great cover for those who are hate filled and malicious to hide behind.

[Al_U_Card]

Here is a thought. People who have "nothing to lose" tend to want things they don't have and "need". People with things they want and need tend to want to conserve and protect them.

 

So, accord all palestinians living in the concerned areas total Israeli citizenship with full rights, a homestead (parcel of land) and a credit for the building of infrastructure or commerce.

 

Now they will have something to lose......and things to protect from the fomentors of discord and terror. Utopian, I know, but interesting nonetheless and faster than the current internecine bloodfest they all call "surviving".

[han]

I just noticed this thread, I'm glad that other people have already pointed out that the network's decision not to broadcast this episode has nothing to do with government censorship.

 

I also agree with those that have expressed their disappointment with the current situation. I really regret that a consequence of violent response to these cartoons is that many people and institutions are now much more careful to express their opinions. I know of several Dutch comedians who have said that they joke about anything except the Islam. This has nothing to do with compassion, but is all about fear.

 

And while this is certainly understandable (I would also think twice before making a joke that might get me killed), I'd like to go back to the times where people would joke, write and draw about any subject they had something to say about.

 

Yes Deb, terrorism is effective (in the sense that it effects us), but are you really suggesting that we should sacrifice our free speech? I think your "consideration" for these terrorists goes too far.

[luke warm]

Terrorism is effective. And maybe the best way to defeat it is with consideration and humanity, because apparently guns, humor and free speech will not defeat or deter it. Maybe sensitivity and decency will work better. And if it doesn't wouldn't we rather go to work and get on planes having been decent and humane?

the problem is, you seem to forget who it is we're dealing with... they aren't the least bit interested in being treated with consideration and humanity, they want an end to our lifestyle, to the very things that make us who and what we are... now one can debate that lifestyle, but as far as i'm concerned one can't debate the correctness of using terrorist tactics to undermine it

 

There are many wonderful tolerant and religious Christians Muslims and Jews. Religion doesn't inspire exclusion and vitriol. It does however make a great cover for those who are hate filled and malicious to hide behind.

this is true as far as it goes, but when the religion itself teaches that it can't coexist with those whose faith differs, it makes things a tad touchy

 

So, accord all palestinians living in the concerned areas total Israeli citizenship with full rights, a homestead (parcel of land) and a credit for the building of infrastructure or commerce.

but al, you seem to forget (like maybe deb did) who you're talking about... these are the same people who vow not to rest until israel (all jews, really) are wiped off the face of the earth... do you think they want citizenship in a country who has, in their opinion, no right to exist?

 

Being decent and humane means that those who are targets of terrorism attempt to specifically target those who are the perpetrators and their support systems. I assure you that there are a number of people who would much prefer to eradicate the problem by obliterating entire populations - until the message gets across.

yes

 

Like "we publish whatever we want and we don't care if the terrorists get mad".

 

Of course, if their only goal is to kill a bunch of innocent people, my strategy won't work.

their goal is to kill all who disagree with their religious faith, they do not have as a goal to live in peace and harmony with the rest of mankind... but i do agree that we should not let terrorists dictate how we live

[Al_U_Card]

So, accord all palestinians living in the concerned areas total Israeli citizenship with full rights, a homestead (parcel of land) and a credit for the building of infrastructure or commerce.

but al, you seem to forget (like maybe deb did) who you're talking about... these are the same people who vow not to rest until israel (all jews, really) are wiped off the face of the earth... do you think they want citizenship in a country who has, in their opinion, no right to exist?

I did not forget, I ignored. The purpose of the exercise, even were it to be the abolishment of "Israel" and the formation "Islish" or "Jewam" states, was to propose a situation where everyone is equal and equally invested in the success and perpetuation of their mutually peaceful coexistance.

 

I did say it was utopian.......but the principle is eminently humane.

[Badmonster]

Yes Deb, terrorism is effective (in the sense that it effects us), but are you really suggesting that we should sacrifice our free speech? I think your "consideration" for these terrorists goes too far.

Absolutely not. I think, and forgive me if I don't phrase this effectively, that while free speech is worth fighting and dying for, there are times when we might be most prudent to chose when and how we exercise that right.

 

The response to the cartoon was disproportionate and sickening.

 

The other side of this is that it must be a very difficult time to be an Arab living in the western world right now. What might have been funny five years ago may be less funny today and funnier again five years from now. There's nothing wrong with chosing to be more sensitive.

[Badmonster]

the problem is, you seem to forget who it is we're dealing with... they aren't the least bit interested in being treated with consideration and humanity, they want an end to our lifestyle, to the very things that make us who and what we are... now one can debate that lifestyle, but as far as i'm concerned one can't debate the correctness of using terrorist tactics to undermine it

 

this is true as far as it goes, but when the religion itself teaches that it can't coexist with those whose faith differs, it makes things a tad touchy

 

 

but al, you seem to forget (like maybe deb did) who you're talking about... these are the same people who vow not to rest until israel (all jews, really) are wiped off the face of the earth... do you think they want citizenship in a country who has, in their opinion, no right to exist?

 

their goal is to kill all who disagree with their religious faith, they do not have as a goal to live in peace and harmony with the rest of mankind

I am going to say something you don't hear very often around here. I don't know. It's complicated and sad and scary and I don't know.

 

I especially don't know about the Isreali Palestinians. I'm not an Israeli or a Palestinian. From the outside looking in I think both sides there have a lot to be angry about and a lot to be ashamed of.

 

Is there some answer that's going to work?

[luke warm]

I am going to say something you don't hear very often around here. I don't know. It's complicated and sad and scary and I don't know.

 

I especially don't know about the Isreali Palestinians. I'm not an Israeli or a Palestinian. From the outside looking in I think both sides there have a lot to be angry about and a lot to be ashamed of.

 

Is there some answer that's going to work?

none of us know a whole helluva lot... as for answers, there are plenty... i just don't think any can work, given the nature of man

[han]

Yes Deb, terrorism is effective (in the sense that it effects us), but are you really suggesting that we should sacrifice our free speech? I think your "consideration" for these terrorists goes too far.

Absolutely not. I think, and forgive me if I don't phrase this effectively, that while free speech is worth fighting and dying for, there are times when we might be most prudent to chose when and how we exercise that right.

 

The response to the cartoon was disproportionate and sickening.

 

The other side of this is that it must be a very difficult time to be an Arab living in the western world right now. What might have been funny five years ago may be less funny today and funnier again five years from now. There's nothing wrong with chosing to be more sensitive.

lol, I forgive you Deb :P.

 

I also agree that a little prudence is called for when expressing one's opinion. Last week there was a disgusting anti-homosexuality demonstration here in Madison, where people shouted things that should (imo) be illegal (I'm not sure what the words of the laws are, but I understand that you are not allowed to say things that incite violence, some of the things they shouted came quite close to that imo).

 

I haven't seen the cartoons, but what I understood was that the whole point was that there is currently a lot of violence in the name of Islam. I heard that one of the cartoons showed a dead suicide bomber who was informed that they were out of virgins (a reaction to a promise that you get 50 virgins in the afterlife if you die in the jihad). This is not a silly joke, these cartoonist weren't just trying to be funny, they were trying to make a point.

 

I think that people should be able to make a statement like this. I don't think that everybody should always be sensitive. I have seen a lot of political cartoons that I thought were really bad, but people should be allowed to write them, and they should not hold back.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

[han]

the problem is, you seem to forget who it is we're dealing with... they aren't the least bit interested in being treated with consideration and humanity, they want an end to our lifestyle, to the very things that make us who and what we are... now one can debate that lifestyle, but as far as i'm concerned one can't debate the correctness of using terrorist tactics to undermine it

 

this is true as far as it goes, but when the religion itself teaches that it can't coexist with those whose faith differs, it makes things a tad touchy

 

 

but al, you seem to forget (like maybe deb did) who you're talking about... these are the same people who vow not to rest until israel (all jews, really) are wiped off the face of the earth... do you think they want citizenship in a country who has, in their opinion, no right to exist?

 

their goal is to kill all who disagree with their religious faith, they do not have as a goal to live in peace and harmony with the rest of mankind

 

Jimmy, I know you were replying to a post and pieces have been cut out in between, but I think that you shouldn't write "they" without clarifying who you mean. Surely you are talking about terrorists here, not about the whole Islamic world. I hope..

[luke warm]

absolutely, han, i was speaking of terrorists and any who support them... during the whole cartoon fiasco, millions in the islam religion not only acted in a civilized manner but decried the violence perpetrated by those who didn't