Do you have agreements about this double?

[Gerben42]

(1♥) 1♠ (Pass) 2♥*

(3♥) Dbl

 

2♥: Either fit or some very strong hands that have no other bid.

[Finch]

No I don't, because I don't have that agreement about the 2H bid.

 

In my methods where 2H promises spade support, the double suggests defending (we don't play game try doubles).

[Mr. Dodgy]

12-15 HCP

[Gerben42]

If the simple cuebid promises support, what does your jump cuebid mean here? A raise or "ask for stopper", or do you make up a suit first with that kind of hand?

[cherdano]

If the simple cuebid promises support, what does your jump cuebid mean here?

Mixed raise for me.

A raise or "ask for stopper", or do you make up a suit first with that kind of hand?

You mean a game-forcing hand without support, without stopper, and without a good suit?

[Gerben42]

You mean a game-forcing hand without support, without stopper, and without a good suit?

 

yes:

 

♠xx

♥xxx

♦AKxx

♣AKQx

 

Just bid 2♣ forcing I guess...

 

Question for Frances: If you do not play game try doubles, you just bid game then? "game try = let's try game".

 

Anyway, the big question is:

 

IF you play game try doubles, is this a situation where they apply? Last night, one of us thought yes, the other one thought no, which resulted in a bad score

[Miron]

1♥-1♠-2♥-2♠

3♥-x

invite into 4♠.

 

1♥-1♠-p-2♥

3♥-x

This seams similar to me. Against the strong handwe have 3NT or other contract (even 3♥x) and against fit and some values, I make invite into 4♠.

If my partner would bid this way I would await ♠ invite.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the dbl showes add. values,

which means you could say it

is a game try.

It is certainly not a penalty dbl,

if partner passes with a spade fit,

thats partners problem.

He will bid 3S with min. and fit,

4S with fit and something to spare

and pass, if he has no fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

Double is a game try in spades, 3♠ is just competitive. This is not one of those situations when you can play pass as stronger than 3♠ since you were only forced to 2♠, the level of the cuebid, so pass just has to say you don't want to play on the 3 level.

[barmar]

1♥-1♠-2♥-2♠

3♥-x

invite into 4♠.

 

1♥-1♠-p-2♥

3♥-x

This seams similar to me.

The difference is that in the first auction advancer has shown a minumum hand, and the game try double (is this the same as "maximal double"?) is the only way for opener to invite (assuming 3♠ is just competitive), while in the second one he has already shown extra values with his cue bid.

 

But there is the problem that advancer's range is quite large in the first auction, because he's responding to an overcall (which could be fairly light) and because he doesn't have any room to cue bid. A nice gadget here for this is cue-bid doubles, so 1♥-1♠-2♥-X shows an invitational ♠ raise, which seems to be more useful than a responsive double forcing to the 3 level in a minor.

[pclayton]

Yeah, agree with Josh; double is maximal, but can be left in.

[jdonn]

Yeah, agree with Josh; double is maximal, but can be left in.

I notice you agreeing with me a fair amount lately. You might want to get your head examined.

[pclayton]

Yeah, agree with Josh; double is maximal, but can be left in.

I notice you agreeing with me a fair amount lately. You might want to get your head examined.

LOL; perhaps a case of 'misery loves company'. :P

[jdonn]

A nice gadget here for this is cue-bid doubles, so 1♥-1♠-2♥-X shows an invitational ♠ raise, which seems to be more useful than a responsive double forcing to the 3 level in a minor.

This seems to me a clear case of Bergen-itis: Creating so many ways to raise partner that there is no way to bid any other hand. It's true 3♥ is wide ranging but at least it gives you a way to raise spades, whereas removing the responsive double leaves you no way at all to bid those hands.

 

If you insisted on creating an artificial raise here other than 3♥, it seems clear to me you would rather use 2NT than double, even if that does force you to the three level.

 

Also, responsive doubles don't force you to the 3 level. In fact partner's most common rebid is 2♠.

[pclayton]

I don't like 1S - 2H - 2S as a raise but Robson (seen it on Goldsmith's site too) has a sensible treatment about 1H - 1S - 3H - x as being a raise. In the latter auction; a fit is more likely, and I think its more relevant for the double to differentiate the raise than to find some 4-4 minor fit at the 4 level.

[Salokin]

Maximal Overcall Double:

i.e. gametry or better if Partner has support

other wise he should show his hand;

then we are in GF mode anyway and

now he knows of my better OVC.

 

Salokin