Bidding structure after 2C

[awm]

In Josh's example, I don't see why on the second auction, opener's knowledge that partner had some scattered cards convinced him to bid a four-card club suit at the four-level on a potential misfit... whereas on the first hand, when responder wanted to show his extra values he punted 4NT instead of similarly bidding a four-card club suit at the four-level. The two situations really seem kind of similar to me.

 

In addition, give responder:

 

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

 

After 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4♣ aren't you sort of stuck? I guess you will bid 4NT and hope the same heart lead doesn't sink you?

 

My point is just that it feels like someone took a judgement call on each auction that could've been a disaster and could've worked out. On the first auction the choice to bid on over 3NT but not show the 4cm was a disaster; on the second auction the decision to bypass 3NT to show the 4cm worked out... but it didn't have to.

[joshs]

Joshs, now change the majors and see who has an easier time.

 

Although the advantage on this hand is obvious, I don't find it convincing enough to say the structure is better.

Ok lets switch the majors:

x AKQxx KQx AKJx

Qxxxx x Axx Qxxx

 

Standard, with kokish:

2C-2D-2H-2S(forced)-3C-4C-4H(an offer to play, not good enough to bid any higher opposite what may be a 4-5 count)-4N(guessing, not really sure they have a spade control)-5C(3)-6C

 

2H scattered pos:

2C-2H-3H-3S-4C-4D(likes clubs, says nothing about diamonds)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

 

The point is that even here with the majors switched forcing opener to make the most space consuming bid, the auction is more convincing with the scattered positive since the strong hand has more info about the weak hand, and they have an extra level of bidding room since they have promised enough values for 4N.

[inquiry]

I am waiting to see:

AKQx KT98xx Axx A

Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:

xxx Qxxxx x xxxx

opposite

+230 ;)

 

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

 

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

 

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

[joshs]

In Josh's example, I don't see why on the second auction, opener's knowledge that partner had some scattered cards convinced him to bid a four-card club suit at the four-level on a potential misfit... whereas on the first hand, when responder wanted to show his extra values he punted 4NT instead of similarly bidding a four-card club suit at the four-level. The two situations really seem kind of similar to me.

 

In addition, give responder:

 

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

 

After 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4♣ aren't you sort of stuck? I guess you will bid 4NT and hope the same heart lead doesn't sink you?

 

My point is just that it feels like someone took a judgement call on each auction that could've been a disaster and could've worked out. On the first auction the choice to bid on over 3NT but not show the 4cm was a disaster; on the second auction the decision to bypass 3NT to show the 4cm worked out... but it didn't have to.

Its not just scattered cards. Its values for 4N, generally 8+. Consequently in auction 2:

Yes opener can bid 3N, but its forcing, so he really should introduce his strong 4 card suit. yes 3N might work out better when you belong in diamonds, but its a statistical thing, since partner will not always introduce a weak 4 card suit over 3N.

 

 

One of the first things I learned about good slam bidding, is that in a borderline slam auction, its usually a bad idea to introduce a bad 4 card suit (less than 3 points in the suit). Too often you end up in slam with an inadequite trump suit. But yes, someone has to bid it...

 

As to the last hand: yes you would have the same problem playing bith methods with:

AKQxx x KQx AKJx

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

in both methods. It doesn't always gain to have the 4N force set up early, but it rarely hurts. Its hard to have a nice auction to

a. 3N!

b. 4S

c. 5D

After 2C-2H-2S-3H-3N-4D is it clear to bid 5D with AKJx in the unbid suit???

Or similarly after

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4D-?

4N seems normal here, just not a winner.

 

Maybe the problem with the auction was bidding hearts naturally in the first place? But opposite a 3 card holding, you often belong in hearts....

[mikeh]

Assign the blame:

AKQxx x KQx AKJx

x Qxxxx Axx Qxxx

 

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4N-P

An unlucky Down 1 on a heart lead with 6C making

 

At the other table it went:

2C-2H(Scattered Positive)-2S-3H-4C-4D(Good hand for clubs, not nececarily a control)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

We can all construct hands that advance our particular device.

 

On the example hand, if S is moving over 3N (not clear on a misfit with borderline values) why not 4♣? Does that have to be 5-5 or more? If so, why?

 

More importantly, the most common 2♣ opening bids are based on balanced hands or good one-suiters: not carefully chosen 5431 with minimum values and a stiff in partner's suit with him having borderline values, a weak suit and a stiff in your suit. Give me any method you choose and I will come up with a problem hand for you.

 

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

 

2♣ 2♥

2N ?

 

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

 

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

 

Most methods developed for bidding in response to big notrump openers are based on the notion that responder is usually in charge of level... even when he is not actually in charge, he is making invitational bids... but how does responder value his hand as invitational when he has no clue how strong opener is? And how does opener know if partner was asking him if he had a good 23 or whether he needed 26 to accept??

 

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

 

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2♥ positive

 

2♣  2♥

3♥  3N nice preservation of space with 3♥ ;)

4♦  ?

 

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

 

Yes, you'd probably land on your feet on this hand: jump to 6♦... but you'd be guessing and, if I wanted to spend a little more time, I am sure I could come up with a more difficult example.

 

2♦ positive

 

2♣  2♦

2♥  2♠ kokish relay

3♦  4♦

 

 

and we are off to the races.

[joshs]

I am waiting to see:

AKQx KT98xx Axx A

Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:

xxx Qxxxx x xxxx

opposite

+230 ;)

 

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

 

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener  bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

 

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

I wasn't aiming a missle at anyone in particular. I was was aiming a missle at the hypothetical person that hannie described that:

a. plays 2H as the only xx negative (a common treatment)

b. thinks thats passable.

 

I have nothing against the parodox responses to 2C. They cater to lighter 2C openers than what most play in the US (at least with a major suit), and thats a reasonable way of handling them. You are slightly behind in showing some good hands, so its a question of do you want to be able to stop in 2M over your 2C openings.

[jdonn]

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

 

2♣  2♥

2N       ?

 

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

 

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

 

It's 22+ and works easily since you are in a game force. Responder simply assumes the minimum range, and opener bids more with the next range up. For example 2♣ 2♥ 2NT 3♣ 3♥ 4♥ opener could bid keycard, or 2♣ 2♥ 2NT 3NT 4NT. I admit I haven't done a good job defining all these auctions but they are mostly intuitive anyway.

 

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

 

x AKQxx AKQx KQx   opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2♥ positive

 

2♣  2♥

3♥  3N   nice preservation of space with 3♥ ;)

4♦  ?

 

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

 

4N is definitely not keycard. Responder simply cuebids 5♣ over 4♦, what is so difficult about that?

[han]

I am waiting to see:

AKQx KT98xx Axx A

Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:

xxx Qxxxx x xxxx

opposite

+230 :)

 

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

 

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener  bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

 

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

This is true only when playing with Ben or Arend, not all my partners are as enlightened ;).

[joshs]

Assign the blame:

AKQxx x KQx AKJx

x Qxxxx Axx Qxxx

 

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4N-P

An unlucky Down 1 on a heart lead with 6C making

 

At the other table it went:

2C-2H(Scattered Positive)-2S-3H-4C-4D(Good hand for clubs, not nececarily a control)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

We can all construct hands that advance our particular device.

 

On the example hand, if S is moving over 3N (not clear on a misfit with borderline values) why not 4♣? Does that have to be 5-5 or more? If so, why?

 

More importantly, the most common 2♣ opening bids are based on balanced hands or good one-suiters: not carefully chosen 5431 with minimum values and a stiff in partner's suit with him having borderline values, a weak suit and a stiff in your suit. Give me any method you choose and I will come up with a problem hand for you.

 

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

 

2♣ 2♥

2N ?

 

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

 

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

 

Most methods developed for bidding in response to big notrump openers are based on the notion that responder is usually in charge of level... even when he is not actually in charge, he is making invitational bids... but how does responder value his hand as invitational when he has no clue how strong opener is? And how does opener know if partner was asking him if he had a good 23 or whether he needed 26 to accept??

 

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

 

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2♥ positive

 

2♣  2♥

3♥  3N nice preservation of space with 3♥ ;)

4♦  ?

 

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

 

Yes, you'd probably land on your feet on this hand: jump to 6♦... but you'd be guessing and, if I wanted to spend a little more time, I am sure I could come up with a more difficult example.

 

2♦ positive

 

2♣  2♦

2♥  2♠ kokish relay

3♦  4♦

 

 

and we are off to the races.

Why is 2C-2H-2N wide ranging a problem when you are in a force to 4N? In fact you have extra toys available here as 3N is forcing, so its easy to find the 4-4 minor suit fits.

 

You could, of course, again use a split range and play 3N as 25-26 here, and have stayman and x-fers over that, but that gives up find the 4-4 minor suit fits, so I think direct NT jumps by either player should show:

a. 2-3 extra HCPs

b. regressive shape (usually 4333)

 

So for instance:

2C-2H-2N-4N(10-11, 4333)

Opener can pass with 22 or bid a 4 card suit to see if it gets raised or bid 5N with exactly 23 and no interest in finding a 4-4 fit. Slam auctions opposite 4333's when you are balanced without a 5 card suit are basically quantatitive and you need more like 34 HCP for slam.

 

 

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2C-2H-3H(denies 4 spades on the side)-3N-4D-5C(Qbid)-5H(Qbid)-6D(no spade A)

 

Thats actually a really easy hand. And you are correct, 4N is not keycard there with no suit agreement, it shows a misfitting minimum.

 

If responder had KQJx x Jxxx Jxxx he would just bid 5D over 4D.

[luke warm]

i agree with frances on the game forcing aspect of 2C.. it seems to make life much simpler when you know you're in a gf auction... i really like:

 

2d=4-7

2h=0-3

2s=balanced 8+

2nt=8+, 5p clubs

3c=8+, 5p diamonds

3d=8+, 5p hearts

3h=8+, 5p spades

 

on josh's example hand it would go 2c : 3d : 3s : 4c : 4d : 4nt : 6c

[Codo]

Any hand with any 4 or 5 card majors? Why is that difficult to understand? When the auction goes 2♣ 2♥(bust) 3NT then responder has no room to use any stayman or transfers, without risking 4NT or higher anyway.

 

I don`t know, what you are talking about. In the system Gerben (and I) mentioned, 2 ♣ is just a semiforcing, not a pure GF.

So, in this context- no pure GF-, you use the Kokish relay to show different NT-Ranges.

The good thing is, that you can bid 2 NT with 19-20 and with 25-26 HCP (or which ranges you ever prefer). I must bid 3 NT with the 25 HCP hand. But I can play 2 Heart opposite a very weak hand. You can not. So, your way works fine, if you have 25 HCPs, mine works better with a semiforcing in Heart.

And the problem with the 5 card major does not happen very often. It does just happen, when you have exactly one 5 card major and a zero trick hand opposite some 25 HCPs. I could life with this problem. It never happens in reality.

 

Well for one thing I believe you are referring to the system you posted where 2♥ and 2♠ are both very weak hands, not the standard 2♥ bust system. But in any case that is no help to opener when he is 5-4 or 5-5. Should he

pass 2♥ and play the 5-1 instead of what may be the 5-5 in a minor?

 

?, No, you can only pass 2 Heart, if you have a one suiter in Heart. If you open any two suiter with 2 Club, you have problems in any given system.

Lets say, you have 5 Hearts and 4 Spades. Please tell me, at which level, you can describe this hand pattern to your pd after you started with 2 Club - 2 Diamond.

Same problem with any other two suiter. This does not proof anything. Just that you better open GF two-suiters with one in a suit.

 

Tailoring your system to stop in 2 of a major after a 2♣ opening is such a misrepresentation of priorities as to boggle the mind.

 

Yes I can see that. But again: If 2 Club is a semiforce or better, it is very nice to have a tool, where you can stop as low as possible opposite a useless hand. if you play 2 Club as a pure Game force, this is not needed at all.

 

Unluckily, pd has to jump to show a GF..

No he doesn't! Are you having fun making up systems for me?/QUOTE]

 

Okay, then 2 ♣ 2 ♦ 2 ♠ is already a gf in spades? Sure you can play it this way, but then again, you must restrict your 2 Club opening to pure GF hands and if it is a semiforcing, but you have to bid on, you will play 3♠. In my way, I will play 2♠. This seems to be a reasonable gain.

 

You still don't understand. By playing 2♦ as some sort of negative and 2♥ as value showing, opener can ultimately rebid 2NT on 100% of his balanced hands (by going through the 2♥ Kokish relay if need be). By playing 2♦ as game forcing and 2♥ as a bust, opener will have to rebid 3NT on his game forcing balanced hands, taking up all your room to look for major suit fits. This is what you call 'no advantage'?

 

No I don`t -and will never -understand this. Like I mentioned above: You must play 2 Club as a game force, or you must play your semiforcing in a major at the 3. level. These disadvantages are much more frequent then the hands, where you look at 25 HCPs opposite a pure bust.

[mikeh]

Why is 2C-2H-2N wide ranging a problem when you are in a force to 4N? In fact you have extra toys available here as 3N is forcing, so its easy to find the 4-4 minor suit fits.

 

Playing 3N as forcing requires far more than flipping the 2♦/2♥ response structure. For many, 2♦ positive merely shows and Ace or a King: responder need have no more than that. So if you make 2♥ the positive waiting bid and then make opener's 2N create a force to 4 major (ok) or 4N, then you have to change the minimum requirement for responder's positive. A method that forces the partnership to 4N on balanced 3 counts opposite balanced 22 counts is unplayable.

 

This means that 2♥ has to be a good 6 count or better. Now your 2♦ 'bust' can be 0-6 and can include an Ace!

 

One of the advantages of playing that the immediate negative denies a control is that opener, with exceptionally powerful hands, can immediately stop worrying about missing a slam, because he knows immediately that the partnership lacks the requisite controls. If the negative response can have controls, this information is lost, and the partnership must adjust its bidding to take this into account.

 

There are other consequences, but any interest I had in considering 2♥ as a positive wait has evaporated if the method prohibits us from playing 3N on 2 balanced hands.

[jdonn]

And the problem with the 5 card major does not  happen very often.  It does just happen, when you have exactly one 5 card major  and a zero trick hand opposite some 25 HCPs. I could life with this problem. It never happens in reality.

 

Are you joking? I would bet this problem when you have one (or two) 5 (or 4) card major(s) happens 75% of the time that opener has a game forcing balanced hand. Never happens in reality? Now you are just making ridiculous statements that are impossible to back up. It didn't take me very long to remember where this was http://www.worldbridge.org/bulletin/05_1_S.../pdf/bul_11.pdf (page 5) note how "well" the auction 2♣ 2♥! 3NT worked. Does that count as reality?

 

?, No, you can only pass 2 Heart, if you have a one suiter in Heart. If you open any two suiter with 2 Club, you have problems in any given system.

 

2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 3♣, 2♣ 2♥ 3♥ 3♠ 4♣. Which of those is more of a problem? Yes I understand the second auction will occur no matter what 2♥ shows, but would you rather be in that situation opposite a bust hand or a hand with values?

 

I haven't even mentioned that playing 2♥ and 2♠ as you do forces responder to bid a level higher with a positive response with spades. 2♣ 3♥(showing spades) and opener has hearts! Good luck bidding from there.

[jdonn]

This means that 2♥ has to be a good 6 count or better. Now your 2♦ 'bust' can be 0-6 and can include an Ace!

 

One of the advantages of playing that the immediate negative denies a control is that opener, with exceptionally powerful hands, can immediately stop worrying about missing a slam, because he knows immediately that the partnership lacks the requisite controls. If the negative response can have controls, this information is lost, and the partnership must adjust its bidding to take this into account.

 

That sort of sounds logical at a glance, but I challenge you to find (or even make up!) a hand where opener is very powerful as you say and the auction works better after 2♣ 2♥(bust) than 2♣ 2♦(0-6 or so). I bet you can't.

 

Besides, any widening you do to the bust responses correspondingly narrows the game forcing response, and that is the one that could use the narrowing since it is unlimited.

[Stephen Tu]

then you have to change the minimum requirement for responder's positive

 

Yes. Those of us advocating the 2♥ scattered positive (~good 7 pts, 2+ controls, personally I use 5+ pts where A=3, K=2, Q=1) think that is a good thing.

 

That way when responder makes positive noise after an initial negative, he is limited to the ~4-bad 7 range, and opener doesn't have to cater to responder being much stronger. It avoids responder bidding 2♦ then bidding on after opener's game signoff, often wresting captaincy when poorly placed to really do so. It allows responder to make slam invitational noise, then make a passable game bid without feeling that he has more than promised, avoiding the 5 level when the hands don't fit well.

 

After all, a single A doesn't put one in the slam zone opposite a min 2♣ opener, which are by far the most common type. And if one ace is all that opener needs, surely there is room to find out about it after 2♦.

 

One can play 3nt if both parties are min after some auction like 2♣-2♥-2NT-3nt.

[Al_U_Card]

In Josh's example, I don't see why on the second auction, opener's knowledge that partner had some scattered cards convinced him to bid a four-card club suit at the four-level on a potential misfit... whereas on the first hand, when responder wanted to show his extra values he punted 4NT instead of similarly bidding a four-card club suit at the four-level. The two situations really seem kind of similar to me.

 

In addition, give responder:

 

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

 

After 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4♣ aren't you sort of stuck? I guess you will bid 4NT and hope the same heart lead doesn't sink you?

 

My point is just that it feels like someone took a judgement call on each auction that could've been a disaster and could've worked out. On the first auction the choice to bid on over 3NT but not show the 4cm was a disaster; on the second auction the decision to bypass 3NT to show the 4cm worked out... but it didn't have to.

Gee 2C-2H (5+H and 2 controls) 2S 3C (natural!) go from there to 6C easy.

[Al_U_Card]

Joshs, now change the majors and see who has an easier time.

 

Although the advantage on this hand is obvious, I don't find it convincing enough to say the structure is better.

Ok lets switch the majors:

x AKQxx KQx AKJx

Qxxxx x Axx Qxxx

 

Standard, with kokish:

2C-2D-2H-2S(forced)-3C-4C-4H(an offer to play, not good enough to bid any higher opposite what may be a 4-5 count)-4N(guessing, not really sure they have a spade control)-5C(3)-6C

 

2H scattered pos:

2C-2H-3H-3S-4C-4D(likes clubs, says nothing about diamonds)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

 

The point is that even here with the majors switched forcing opener to make the most space consuming bid, the auction is more convincing with the scattered positive since the strong hand has more info about the weak hand, and they have an extra level of bidding room since they have promised enough values for 4N.

Gee 2C-2S (5+S and 2 controls) 3H 3NT (natural!) then take a look with 4C and get to the slam.

[Al_U_Card]

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2C 3C (2 controls and a 5+ card minor) 3H 3S (natural with 4) Bid knowing that you have no fit in H and "guaranteed" minor suit fit with some S coverage.

[mikeh]

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

 

2C 3C (2 controls and a 5+ card minor) 3H 3S (natural with 4) Bid knowing that you have no fit in H and "guaranteed" minor suit fit with some S coverage.

I must be confused: 2♣ 3♣ showing WHICH 5 card minor... I don't see ANY 5 card suit B)

[joshs]

Why is 2C-2H-2N wide ranging a problem when you are in a force to 4N? In fact you have extra toys available here as 3N is forcing, so its easy to find the 4-4 minor suit fits.

 

Playing 3N as forcing requires far more than flipping the 2♦/2♥ response structure. For many, 2♦ positive merely shows and Ace or a King: responder need have no more than that. So if you make 2♥ the positive waiting bid and then make opener's 2N create a force to 4 major (ok) or 4N, then you have to change the minimum requirement for responder's positive. A method that forces the partnership to 4N on balanced 3 counts opposite balanced 22 counts is unplayable.

 

This means that 2♥ has to be a good 6 count or better. Now your 2♦ 'bust' can be 0-6 and can include an Ace!

 

One of the advantages of playing that the immediate negative denies a control is that opener, with exceptionally powerful hands, can immediately stop worrying about missing a slam, because he knows immediately that the partnership lacks the requisite controls. If the negative response can have controls, this information is lost, and the partnership must adjust its bidding to take this into account.

 

There are other consequences, but any interest I had in considering 2♥ as a positive wait has evaporated if the method prohibits us from playing 3N on 2 balanced hands.

I was never discussing switching the 2D (pos) and 2H(xx neg). I was discussing switching the 2N(Balanced 8+) with the 2H(8+ with hearts) from the standard 2C responses except that since 2H is relatively a cheap bid, I have some suit quality requirements for suit positives, so some unbalanced hands go into the 2H bid as well.

 

I usually require 2/3 top honors for a 5 card suit positive, but only about KJxxxx or QJTxxx for a 6 card suit positive assuming you have sufficient other values. Some people require stronger suits than I do for the non-2H positives.

 

Essentially, the 2H double negative is "I have a hand that is probably worthless for slam", and the 2D bid is everything else while in my treament the 2H scattered positive is "I have a sound slam invite" and the 2D bid is "we probably only have game, but who knows".

 

When I first started playing this way I required only 6 points for the 2H bid, but my experiance has been that rasing that requirement to genuine 4N values works better, so in general I require 8 points or an A and a K (hence the 2D bid has at most 2 controls in it). Since I have mostly been playing strong clubs in recent years (except with Marc Umeno who makes me play the stupid 2H double negative) I don't have a lot of recent experience here, so I can easily be convinced that the optimal point count is a point lighter or stronger than what I play.

 

Note: I have always played very strong 2C bids. These are virtually all game forcing except for the hands that rebid 2N. If you play lighter 2C bids, then your objectives are different. My objectives are:

a. the correct strain

b. do we belong in slam?

Others have to worry about

c. do we belong in game

and that makes the 2C structure much harder to handle.

 

The 2H double negative, by killing the kokish sequence, torpedos a.

[inquiry]

Note: I have always played very strong 2C bids. These are virtually all game forcing except for the hands that rebid 2N. If you play lighter 2C bids, then your objectives are different. My objectives are:

a. the correct strain

b. do we belong in slam?

Others have to worry about

c. do we belong in game

and that makes the 2C structure much harder to handle.

 

The 2H double negative, by killing the kokish sequence, torpedos a.

You must very seldom open 2♣ other than with balanced 22+, if all unbalanced hands have to be game force. One can save 2♣ for true game force, or follow the French lead of using 2♣ and 2♦ for strong hands, one game force, the other suggesting near game force.

 

But what it he largest advantage of systems like precision? Anyone who says they start their strong auctions one level lower (in 1♣ rather than 2♣) doesn't understand. The largest advantage is that all their bids other than 1♣ are strictly limited. This helps with all the auctions that do not begin with 1♣. Using GF as your mantra for 2♣ opening bids, no doubt, solves the problems of reaching game. But at a tremendous cost, at least in my opinion, on making your one bids a total mess, and you can forget about adding light opening bids to your system, as the range from minimum (normal opening) to just short of true-game force is already too wide to unravel, imagine light opening bids (sub-"normal") upto just short opening bid.

 

 

So such an approach (2♣ is either game force or balanced 22-24) is not a reasonable solution, not that having 2♣ unambigiously forcing to game is a bad thing for auctions that start 2♣, but for what it does to the other bids in your system.

 

Now as for you part "c", do we belong in game. After, 2♣=2♥ (no tricks), opener knows the answer to the "do we belong in game" question, especially if you combine with 2♠ as I disucssed above (1 distirbutional/HQ trick for ♥, no trick for ♠). Certainly the way I play 2♣ structure is not the only way and probalby not even the best way to play 2♣ considered in isolation. But for the way I like to bid (opening bids, hand evaluation, second and third round bidding) it suits me fine. I think if I played 2♣ as absolute game force, I would play old romex control showing responses (the version with 1NT as artificial and 1 round forcing and 2♣ as pure game force), and not pussyfoot around. After all, partner says he has 10 tricks or so, so controls will be a huge help in deciding slam or not.

[joshs]

Note: I have always played very strong 2C bids. These are virtually all game forcing except for the hands that rebid 2N. If you play lighter 2C bids, then your objectives are different. My objectives are:

a. the correct strain

b. do we belong in slam?

Others have to worry about

c. do we belong in game

and that makes the 2C structure much harder to handle.

 

The 2H double negative, by killing the kokish sequence, torpedos a.

You must very seldom open 2♣ other than with balanced 22+, if all unbalanced hands have to be game force. One can save 2♣ for true game force, or follow the French lead of using 2♣ and 2♦ for strong hands, one game force, the other suggesting near game force.

 

But what it he largest advantage of systems like precision? Anyone who says they start their strong auctions one level lower (in 1♣ rather than 2♣) doesn't understand. The largest advantage is that all their bids other than 1♣ are strictly limited. This helps with all the auctions that do not begin with 1♣. Using GF as your mantra for 2♣ opening bids, no doubt, solves the problems of reaching game. But at a tremendous cost, at least in my opinion, on making your one bids a total mess, and you can forget about adding light opening bids to your system, as the range from minimum (normal opening) to just short of true-game force is already too wide to unravel, imagine light opening bids (sub-"normal") upto just short opening bid.

 

 

So such an approach (2♣ is either game force or balanced 22-24) is not a reasonable solution, not that having 2♣ unambigiously forcing to game is a bad thing for auctions that start 2♣, but for what it does to the other bids in your system.

 

Now as for you part "c", do we belong in game. After, 2♣=2♥ (no tricks), opener knows the answer to the "do we belong in game" question, especially if you combine with 2♠ as I disucssed above (1 distirbutional/HQ trick for ♥, no trick for ♠). Certainly the way I play 2♣ structure is not the only way and probalby not even the best way to play 2♣ considered in isolation. But for the way I like to bid (opening bids, hand evaluation, second and third round bidding) it suits me fine. I think if I played 2♣ as absolute game force, I would play old romex control showing responses (the version with 1NT as artificial and 1 round forcing and 2♣ as pure game force), and not pussyfoot around. After all, partner says he has 10 tricks or so, so controls will be a huge help in deciding slam or not.

Its nice that you feel that way but close to 100% of US experts disagree with you. The 2C opener is not game in hand. But it is forcing to game with very few exceptions (yes, many have one additional exception sequence involving a double negative and a suit bid and rebid).

 

When people play 2C-2H double negative a new suit by opener is still forcing. This is basic bridge and passing it reflects a lack of understanding of the 2H double negative convention.

 

Playing precision doesn't solve this problem. If you have AKQxx AKxx x AKx and the auction goes 1C-1D you rebid 2S showing a standard 2C-2D-2S bid. E.G. a game force. Yes the auction could continue 3C(double neg)-3S-P but this is a rare exception sequence, and its really not clear that the gains from having the double negative, makes up from the loss of not being able to bid game or slam in clubs very easily....

 

Where precision really helps on is the in between hands. AKxxx Axxxx Ax x opposite xx Kxxxx xxx xxx and the like where the standard opening bid would be passed, but you have game (or even slam!) in another suit. And on the hands where responder has not enough for a 2/1 bid, but enough to game force opposite a 16 count. Since a natural and Gfing auction starts lower, more information can be exchanged.