Ethical dilema

[nickf]

Hi,

 

I've met a lot of nice people on online bridge, firstly in OKB and now BBO. Some have even been my guests when they have visited Sydney and I count them among my friends. To date, my 'on-line' judgement has been impeccable (I think).

 

A year or so ago, I began chatting with someone from overseas and we became quite amicable, we had a lot in common and had the odd game. So it came as a real shock recently when i was told this person has been banned from some clubs for allegedly cheating. I've been told there was a large history of hands over a 12 month period that seemed to indicate cheating.

 

A few days prior to becoming aware of the ban, I asked my friend why he/she had not been playing recently in a BBO club I frequent. He/ She asked me not to ask why and I respected his/her wish, naively assuming at the time it may have been a ZT issue.

 

Since being told why he/ she was banned, we have continued to chat, yet I feel a bit awkward. Is this person a complete dirtbag who I should add to my enemies list or should I put this behaviour aside and continue the acquaintance?

 

My gut feeling says this is a person who I would like to continue to chat with, but I also have pangs of guilt.

 

What do you think?

 

nickf

sydney

[csdenmark]

You ought to have an easy decision here Nick. Your personal credibility is at risk.

[sceptic]

I take people as I find them

 

How many friends does everyone have that have cheated on their wives or husbands. do you still have these as friends or have you discarded them

 

If you feel they are your friend, then treat them as a friend, if you have a moral dilema about their actions, then you have to choose (which is what I guess you have or you would not be asking the question)

 

It probably wont come as a suprise (but one of my friends I would trust with my life but not with my wallet) I have known him 30 + years he has helped me many times and been there when I needed him, he has a failing in life (IMHO) (but the good outweighs the bad)

 

I think that your comment about judgement of online friends is good, you really can tell someones character through the web (as suprising as that may seem)

 

Since being told why he/ she was banned, we have continued to chat, yet I feel a bit awkward. Is this person a complete dirtbag who I should add to my enemies list or should I put this behaviour aside and continue the acquaintance?

 

your choice, but unless someone has done you any harm, why lose a friend, no one is perfect and I have yet to meet anyone who does not have the odd flaw in their character

[42]

Hi Nick!

I met more than 1 person who became a completely different character at the bridge table for reasons that we can or cannot understand, but can be called a friend elsewhere; and also persons who claimed to be a friend and turned out to be not. My golden rule is to listen to my feelings rather to look for arguments. Imo everyone has his/her dark side, we will never find the perfect partner. So just take what is good for you and suits well, the rest is the private corner of your friend, you are not responsable for him/her as well as nobody can blame you for things (s)he did and you were not involved.

I disagree with Claus, I don't think that "your personal credibility is at risk" (as I pointed out above); who will be interested in (and notice) with whom you chat? It is absolutely your private decision.

Internet friendships have perhaps their own mechanisms: it is easy to pretend a kind of nearness, it is easier to talk about nearly everything with someone in the anonymity of the net, it is far easier to hide the "dark sides" than it is f2f. I on your place would decide to chat on but not to force more. Why? Because the person didn't want to be open with you, admitting or denying what was going on, talking about the whole case, (s)he wants to keep his/her secret(s) and therefore a distance.

Unfortunately nothing can protect us from disappointment in any kind of relationship :) At least I made a lot of good experiences, especially here in the BBF and on BBO.

Caren

[inquiry]

Hi Nick

 

Somethings about this story are troublesome. Private clubs, of course, have the absolute right to control their membershps. What they don't have is the right to smear people's "good name". In the case you quote, the "gossip" that so-and-so was banned for cheating is quite inappropriate and if it comes from the private club manager is a violation of the rules of the site.

 

Person "A" is accused of cheating in a private club. The manager decides to look and makes a decision that yes, "A" was cheating. Let's imagine two scenaros', in both cases, "A" is removed from the club.

 

In the ideal case (First) the manager reports "A" to abuse. Abuse then has "A" play examined and makes a ruling (the club manager will not get the report regardless of the decision: This could be: No evidence of cheating, end of story. It could be clear evidence of cheating, and "A" will disappear for some time, likely 2 years or more, "strong evidence of cheating, but not 100%", then "A" is likely to disappear for a shorter period of time with an order to sin no more if/when allowed to return, and finally, suggested evidence that cheating might be occuring, in which case "A" will be watched. In this ideal case, the manager is done with "A" and the case as soon as he/she turns into ABUSE. And at no time should the manager be discussing the case with others.

 

In the less than ideal case. the manager throws "A" out of the club, says "A" was cheating, and tells anyone and everyone that wants to know that "cheaters like "A" are not allowed in their club. This makes the club manager feel like a hero to himself by protecting the good name of the club, while smearing the name of the person accused. Often the club manager doesn't report "A" to abuse, and the review of cheating is "cursory" at best (they did drop the singleton king offside, so surely that must be cheating, right!!).

 

Ask yourself this. Who is spreading the story of "A" being booted from the club for cheating, certainly not "A", this is from your own admission. And now we have the news that "A" has been booted from "Several clubs" for cheating. This kind of stories should never be passed from around. How can "A" ever defend himself from such allegations. I know nick that you are a good enough player to examine the play of a person and see if something "funny" is happening. If in all the time you knew "A" you never saw anything, that would say something.

 

This doesn't mean "A" doesn't cheat. Maybe he/she does, since we don't know the person involved here. But I truely hate character assasination where the accused can't face the accusor nor see the evidence provided against them, nor have a chance to rebut it. Continue to talk with your friend, after all, sound like they could use a friend. If you are truely concerned that "A" might be a cheater, use myhands or some other hand record and see if you see any evidence. And shame on the private clubs for getting together and black balling a person (chatting among themselves) if this is what they are doing. They should let ABUSE handle problems like this rather than acting like this: they are free to ban them from their clubs, but not free to talk about them behind their backs.

[helene_t]

I think you should try not to let your friendship impair by these rumors. The rumors may be untrue. Especially if your friend has been banned from some clubs but not from BBO, the eveidence against him is probably not strong. But even if the rumors are true, I agree with Wayne and Caren.

 

I understand that this is not easy. Especially, if you have the feeling that this is influencing the way you deal with him and wonder if he wonders if you know about it. Then it might be better to confront him with it. Then again, it may be better not to ......

[hrothgar]

Somethings about this story are troublesome. Private clubs, of course, have the absolute right to control their membershps. What they don't have is the right to smear people's "good name". In the case you quote, the "gossip" that so-and-so was banned for cheating is quite inappropriate and if it comes from the private club manager is a violation of the rules of the site.

I think that its a big mistake that BBO's management decided to get involved in these sorts of matters.

 

I (pretty much) agree that private clubs shouldn't start branding "cheaters" with a scarlet letter. With this said and done, over time these sorts of things tend to work themselves out. Typically these issues work themselves out in ugly/petty fights during which the aggrieved party and the club management launch broadsides back and forth. However, eventually some kind of closure is reached. Closure may consist of a radioactive wasteland, inhabited largely by cockroaches and rats. But someday, the cockroaches will create their own civilization.

 

All hyperbole aside, if you provide people with enough enough information, the eventually reach a correct conclusions. And all this without any need to constantly be tweaking the system from on high.

[inquiry]

Somethings about this story are troublesome. Private clubs, of course, have the absolute right to control their membershps. What they don't have is the right to smear people's "good name". In the case you quote, the "gossip" that so-and-so was banned for cheating is quite inappropriate and if it comes from the private club manager is a violation of the rules of the site.

I think that its a big mistake that BBO's management decided to get involved in these sorts of matters.

 

I (pretty much) agree that private clubs shouldn't start branding "cheaters" with a scarlet letter. With this said and done, over time these sorts of things tend to work themselves out. Typically these issues work themselves out in ugly/petty fights during which the aggrieved party and the club management launch broadsides back and forth. However, eventually some kind of closure is reached. Closure may consist of a radioactive wasteland, inhabited largely by cockroaches and rats. But someday, the cockroaches will create their own civilization.

 

All hyperbole aside, if you provide people with enough enough information, the eventually reach a correct conclusions. And all this without any need to constantly be tweaking the system from on high.

Well Richard, I already said a private club can admit and throw out who they want for basically any reason they want. If "A" was throw out of club "B", that is it. BBO management is not a place to seek appeal. In fact, if you read what I wrote, I said if abuse investigated and found no evidence of cheating, that was the end of it (but no report back to the club).. this means "A" is still thrown out of the club. BBO doesn't second guess the clubs.

 

Now does the "back and forth" broadsides between the club and the individual a concern. Person "A" can defend themselves to the club and tell the world they where unjustly thrown out of the club for cheating if they want. The club, can keep them out forever. It is when the club starts telling everybody and their pet dog that "A" was thrown out for cheating that causes the problem. At least for me, I find this disgusting behavior. If they feel the need to share the cheating allegations with someone, abuse is the place to go. I will tell you that a lot of very demonstratably innocent people have been accused of cheating on very non-existent evidence.

[keylime]

I wholeheartedly agree with Richard here.

 

I have a serious bane of contention with private clubs being about to effectively label someone a "cheat". Considering that last year I was labeled such, I tend to be a wee bit oversensitive with regards to this topic, and I freely admit it.

[luke warm]

nick, is your relationship with this person such that you can just ask him (her)? i think i'd just tell him what i'd heard and see if he wanted to talk about it... even if it's true, people change (repent), and i don't particularly like holding something against someone indefinitely

 

the problem comes about if he tells you what's happening but denies any wrongdoing... in that case, you can do as ben suggested and examine the hands yourself (if available)... if you decide he probably was cheating, then your decision will be based as much on his lying about it as about the actual cheating... otoh, if he admits it to you and seems sincerely sorry, i'd probably forgive him

[Tola18]

I think the question is not IF he cheated, but if you do still want to be his friend even if proven cheater.

 

And as he hasnt never tried to cheat you or with you present - keep the friendship I think. Why not?

Be careful with borrowing him money thought.

 

Who knows, you are perhaps helping his better self?!