Open 2[cl] or not?

[whereagles]

Matchpoints, int/adv field, expert pard. All vuln, you hold:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=skhakqjxxxdqxxcax]133|100|Scoring: MP

You

..??[/hv]

Playing Sayc or 2/1, what would you open?

[P_Marlowe]

2C, I have a single suiter in

the mayor, and no rebid problems.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

If I can stop low if partner has nothing yes, otherwise no. In my regular "standard" system this hand would qualify even though I'd feel bad about it :D

[inquiry]

I open 2♣ because my partner with no tricks will bid 2♥ and i will pass. If not playing this 2♥ instant double negative, I would open 1♥

[hatchett]

1♥. A matter of agreement I suppose, but for me with the stiff K not even that close to a 2♣ opener.

[inquiry]

1♥. A matter of agreement I suppose, but for me with the stiff K not even that close to a 2♣ opener.

Funny, for me you can remove the ♠K and the ♦Q and I would still open 2♣ with tmy regular partners. This is because I open Acol 2 in either M with 2♣ and....

 

x

AKQJxxx

xxx

Ax

 

Is a reasonalbe minimum for this bid: 8 "sure" tricks, a suit that can play opposite a singketon in slam, and at least five controls. Note, for me,

 

2C - 2D

2H - 2N

3H -

 

is one way out (in addition to 2C-2H-all pass)

 

The noted auction, 2D promises at least one trick

2H - shows a heart suit, forcing one round

2N - is artificial "negative" showing exactly one trick for heart contract

3H - one trick is not enough (and I hope your one trick is not the spade king).

 

This is definately not "standard" 2/1. I got this treatment from Chris Ryal's webpage.

[hrothgar]

Clear 1♥ opening

[Hefaistos]

To answer the question: I'd open 1 heart with this, all my regular partnerships include the 2cl description as: "8+/9+ playing tricks in a M/m with 3-4 top tricks outside the main suit when holding a one-suited hand". Also I have no way to stop in a partscore after the 2cl opening, except 2cl-2d (very weak) - 2M/3m (min hand) - pass. This has many advantages and disadvantages of course :D.

To elaborate a bit: actually we open some kind of South African Transfer with this. All hands with a major between a normal 4 level preempt and a 2cl opening are opened with 4h/sp.

Again this has some plusses and minuses.

 

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Better keep your mouth shut and let people think you're a fool

Than open it and remove all doubt.

Mark Twain

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[Finch]

I would open 1H. I'm not missing game if partner passes, and I'll get too high opposite a fair hand if I open 2C.

 

I haven't compared responses, but on another thread a lot of people said they wouldn't open 2C holding

 

A109

AKQx

AKJxxx

-

 

Which is a massively stronger hand. That hand makes slam opposite the right balanced 0-count. The hand here can't make game opposite a balanced 9-count.

 

How many of you who would open 1D on that hand are opening this hand 2C? I know, minor-suited hands harder to handle, 3-suiters harder to bid, etc etc but when it comes down to it, although there is some overlap, a 2C opener is fundamentally a stronger hand.

[kenrexford]

The problem kis not so much when partner is weak. The problem is when partner is strong. When he responds 2D, I now have a 3H call (setting trumps, demanding cues), with insufficient values for that action. If I walk the dog on partner, he will expect a broken suit in honors.

 

Better to Open 1H. If it passes out, I make 1H. If partner can make a 2/1, amazingly, my 3H is right on target now. After a forcing 1NT, I bid 2NT (a GF relay to 3C) and then 3H to show a game-forcing hand with hearts, also allowing cuebidding without lies to partner.

 

Move the spade King to diamonds, and I open 2C. I just do not like handling a solid suit through 2C when I have 4 1/2 losers. Understand, though, that I am less concerned about handling a broken one-suiter with 4 1/2 losers through 2C, if that makes any sense.

[whereagles]

Clear 1♥ opening

Is it also clear what to rebid if pard responds, 1♠ or 1NT?

 

Or are you going to use Fluffy's "2NT, wtp?" gadget :D

[whereagles]

A109

AKQx

AKJxxx

-

 

That hand makes slam opposite the right balanced 0-count.

But on a bad day this hand takes 6-7 tricks, whereas the heart hand always takes 8.

 

And I don't think you make slam opposite the ideal 0-count 3424 (2 spade losers). Think you need 5 hearts.

[Blofeld]

A109

AKQx

AKJxxx

-

 

That hand makes slam opposite the right balanced 0-count.

But on a bad day this hand takes 6-7 tricks, whereas the heart hand always takes 8.

 

And I don't think you make slam opposite the ideal 0-count 3424 (2 spade losers). Think you need 5 hearts.

I think the right balanced 0-count is a 2344 or 2443.

 

If everything splits, 6♦ makes opposite a 3334!

 

---

 

I'm opening 1♥ on the hand in this thread, by the way, unless my methods (e.g. Trebuchet) allow me to show an 8-trick hand with hearts and get out at the 2-level.

[mikeh]

1♥ for me, but that will surprise no-one, I suppose.

 

As for whereagle's question of rebid: of course there are gadgets available:

 

My own favourite is a gf jumpshift to 3♣: either natural or a massive one-suiter. Responder's usual default call is 3♦. If not playing that, then one could well jumpshift anyway or jump to 4♥.

 

While the difficulties flowing from a common response to 1♥ should not be ignored, it is not as if you will be overwhelmingly happy with most common 2♣ developments either.

 

In my experience, the average player actually screws up 2♣ auctions more than any other constructive sequence.

 

For me, if I have expert opps, I hate it when they open 2♣: when I have intermediate or advanced opps, I kind of enjoy it: my score expectation is above average in that case.

[pclayton]

1♥ and I don't think its close. If pard passes, we don't have game.

 

Over 1♠, I rebid 3N by the way.

[zasanya]

I voted 2♣ and now find myself agreeing with the 1♥ advocates.The culprits are singleton ♠ K and tripleton ♦ Q.Shift that K to ♣ and I think the whole world will bid 2♣ and shift it to ♦ and at least half the world will bid 2♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I voted for 2C, since I think the hand qualifies

for a Acol 2H bid.

Personnaly I play Benjamin, i.e. 2C shows only

8/9 playing tricks.

 

Looking at the answers, and thinking about my first

reaction to the question, playing 2C american style,

1H is probably better, but I dont think it will matter

a lot.

 

We have the controls and the playing strength for

a min. 2C opener, and we know what we want to

play: hearts, the only open question is, how high,

and does partner have Aces / Kings.

 

The auction could simply proceed:

 

2C - 2D (1)

2H - ???

3H (2) -

 

(1) waiting, but even a suit bid wont hurt, because

we would like to hear a strong side suit

(2) setting trumps, asking for cue bids, hopefully

our first cue promises a top honor

 

 

With kind regard

Marlowe

[hatchett]

I would open 1H. I'm not missing game if partner passes, and I'll get too high opposite a fair hand if I open 2C.

 

 

The game you might miss is 3NT opposite nothing but a lead away from the ♠A, and it is not hard to construct a pass for partner where 3NT is reasonable, but I agree with the second bit about getting too high.

 

We have the controls and the playing strength for

a min. 2C opener, and we know what we want to

play: hearts, the only open question is, how high,

and does partner have Aces / Kings.

 

The auction could simply proceed:

 

2C - 2D (1)

2H - ???

3H (2) -

 

I disagree strongly with this, we may well want to play in 3NT in on this hand, that's why I like the plan of 1H and rebid 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

We have the controls and the playing strength for

a min. 2C opener, and we know what we want to

play: hearts, the only open question is, how high,

and does partner have Aces / Kings.

 

The auction could simply proceed:

 

2C - 2D (1)

2H - ???

3H (2) -

 

I disagree strongly with this, we may well want to play in 3NT in on this hand, that's why I like the plan of 1H and rebid 3NT.

Hi,

 

a matter of style, I prefer to play the mayor,

even when playing MP, this maybe a losing

strategy, but I think the 10 NT points NT

are overrated, people forget, that this

assumes, that we will take the same number

of tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[HeartA]

I voted 2♣ and now find myself agreeing with the 1♥ advocates.The culprits are singleton ♠ K and tripleton ♦ Q.Shift that K to ♣ and I think the whole world will bid 2♣ and shift it to ♦ and at least half the world will bid 2♣.

It's not just stiff SK and DQxx, but also CAx. When dummy lay down some "good" cards: SA and CQ (even CK on side), they are actually useless.

 

DQ may not be as bad, since any honor in that suit from dummy could be helpful.

[inquiry]

I voted 2♣ and now find myself agreeing with the 1♥ advocates.The culprits are singleton ♠ K and tripleton ♦ Q.Shift that K to ♣ and I think the whole world will bid 2♣ and shift it to ♦ and at least half the world will bid 2♣.

It's not just stiff SK and DQxx, but also CAx. When dummy lay down some "good" cards: SA and CQ (even CK on side), they are actually useless.

 

DQ may not be as bad, since any honor in that suit from dummy could be helpful.

♠ACE is hardly useless. For one thing is covers a sure loser in my hand (the spade singleton that I hold) giving me 9 tricks instead of 8. For another, they may not be able to beat me in 3NT... ♦ may split, ♦ honors maybe well placed, partner may have useful ♦ cards in the form of length of some thing iwth the Ten. Even if they could beat 3NT on ♦ lead, they maynot find one.

 

All in all, ♠Ace is a very useful card.

[Al_U_Card]

Maybe under the right conditions and with a bid from the opps i might bid 4H, but in 1st or 2nd seat, I am opening 1H and anything else is not close. For me 2C requires more defensive quick tricks than losers so that makes the choice much easier. All the other suggestions about what will or won't happen if pard is weak or strong hold for me too.

[HeartA]

♠ACE is hardly useless. For one thing is covers a sure loser in my hand (the spade singleton that I hold) giving me 9 tricks instead of 8. For another, they may not be able to beat me in 3NT... ♦ may split, ♦ honors maybe well placed, partner may have useful ♦ cards in the form of length of some thing iwth the Ten. Even if they could beat 3NT on ♦ lead, they maynot find one.

 

All in all, ♠Ace is a very useful card.

You got me, ben.

 

SA is a good card in a sense, but it is not as goog as it looks. SAK would score only one trick, and if opps led S, SA will not serve as a meaningful entry.

[whereagles]

Thx all. Hands were

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&w=skhakqjxxxdqxxcax&e=sqt9xxhxxxdxcxxxx]266|100|Scoring: MP

What to open on the West cards?[/hv]

 

Opening 1♥ sees pard pass most of the time and a game is missed. So you should have opened 2♣, right?

 

WRONG :) It takes four to bridge, as they say, so LHO is kind enough to double your 1♥. Not playing gadgets to show a weakish raise, pard passes and RHO bids 1♠.

 

Now you get your second slice at the pie and bid 3♥. Why only 3♥? Well.. you have to be consistent: if you evaluated the hand as not worth a 2♣ opener, you can't force yourself into game now :) Anyway, LHO passes and surely pard will now bid 4, right?

 

WRONG AGAIN :) :) Pard could hardly believe you could be THAT strong and passed!!! (Ok, your fame of overbidder didn't help either, but you see the point.)

 

Anyway 3♥ +1, a zero and some food for thought :ph34r:

[asdfg2k]

Partner was right. Where was your 2S bid? or your 3S bid? (reasonable shot, although not as good, IMO)

 

3H was indeed too weak.

 

I believe it was Frances who gave you the secret to this hand. You are too weak, in most systems, to open 2C. The reason is that you are concerned about getting too high if partner has fair values. Now that the bidding has all but guaranteed partner's lack of significant values, I think bidding to game is normal. The only question is what route you take to get there.

 

There are just too many hands where partner can produce the necessary tricks on skimpy values not to ensure bidding to game. The current hand is a case in point.

 

And since this is matchpoints, and you know that many other players, lacking your superlative judgment, will no doubt have opened 2c and find themselves in game with your hand, you are going against the field to stop below game.

 

The question is whether you are playing with a partner who, over 2s, will recognize that the given hand is enough to bid game. If not, then you might as well bid 4H instead of 2S.