SAYC with 1NT forcing

[kgr]

[hv=d=s&n=skjxxhxdaxxxckxxx&s=shakjxxxdkxxcaqxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Playing with an pickup advanced partner who played ok till this bidding:

1H-1NT

3H-3NT

4C-4S

4NT-5D

All Pass

Partner was leader in 5D but disappeared after the bidding.

In his profile he had SAYC, 1NTf and a lot of other info.

=> What is SAYC with 1NT forcing? Even if that exists, then I would be surprised if that explains his bidding?

Explanation of my bidding:

- 4C: partner has max 1card H and 3 card S, so we probably play better in the minors then in 3NT.

- 4NT: hope partner will pass now

- final Pass: Don't know it anymore, partner didn'"t like H and C so he will have D.

[Gerben42]

=> What is SAYC with 1NT forcing?

 

Not SAYC, but what is SAYC anyway? It's "the system your partner plays".

 

Makes you wonder what 1♠ after 1♥ would've been ;)

[helene_t]

No idea what partner was playing, but you shouldn't have passed 5♦.

 

Assuming you play some kind of SA-like system, the bidding could go:

1♥-1♠

2♣*-2NT**

3♥***-4♣

6♣****-pass

 

*Too strong for 2♥, too weak for 3♣. 3♥ would deny a second suit

**Not ideal, but being too strong for 3♣ and too weak for 4♣ or 4thSFtG there is no alternative

***Forcing since a minimum 6-4 would have rebid 2♥ (make sure partner agrees with this!)

****No guts, no glory

[kfgauss]

Skipping 1S is certainly odd, but 4S here is a good club raise, as it can't be anything else (and this is indeed what partner has). I imagine partner thought 5D was a response to straight blackwood, or possibly was attempting to cuebid diamonds (note that 4D over 4C is natural and so partner didn't "skip" a diamond cuebid earlier; also, 4S is not a spade cuebid supporting clubs, but just a general good club raise since it is the only "cuebid" available).

 

Andy

[whereagles]

I would just have passed 3NT. No use trying to get scientific when there's a risk pard will be of the brigade "I don't understand the bidding, so I pass".

[Wackojack]

I hate it when partners skip their 4 card major and bid 1NT. It says "I dont trust you to play the hand" Inevitetably the bidding gets messy and it becomes a matter of luck if you land in the right spot.

[Codo]

Somehow you both got, wo you deserved.

 

My understanding from your bids:

 

1 ♥ Fine bid 11-21 HCPS, 5+ Hearts

- 1 NT 6-9 HCPS, no 3 Heart, no 4+ spades

3 ♥ 16-18, strong hearts, no second suit

- 3 NT 0-1 H all suits stopped, to play

4C selfcuebid for Hearts, no second suit

- 4S no diamond control, but Spade cuebid

4NT RCKB, diamonds stopped

-5D 4 or 1 KCs

All Pass what????

 

So, in my understand of SAYC (and SAYC is a very well defined system, even so it is not well known by most BBO-Bidders like me), the bidding had been be very different from yours

 

I guess, pd wanted to do some masterminding. He tried to become declarer. And as 2 NT had been a raise and 3 NT a overbid, he decided to bid 1 NT.

 

And besides: I disagree with Helen,, that 2 ♣ should show extra strength. IF I open because of some nice shape, I would like to outbid my pattern asap. I will never understand, why it should be wiser to show just one additional card in your hand, while you can show 4 cards with your second bid.

[helene_t]

And besides: I disagree with Helen,, that 2 ♣ should show extra strength. IF I open because of some nice shape, I would like to outbid my pattern asap. I will never understand, why it should be wiser to show just one additional card in your hand, while you can show 4 cards with your second bid.

2♣ does not show extras but according to Bridge World Standard (which you don't have to play, of course, it's not the same as SAYC), 3♥ here would show extras since a minimum 6-4 would have rebid 2♥ (or you can choose to pass 2NT with a bad 6-card if you prefer). I play this with both IRL partners. Not sure how widespread that agreement is. I suspect it is not specified in SAYC.

[kenberg]

SAYC with 1NT forcing is probably an oxymoron but I have played 1NT forcing w/o playing 2/1 as a game force, and that's how I would take the phrase. I realize that many would regard playing 1N forcing but 2/1 not game frocing is moronic (without the oxy). It probably isn't optimal but I have played worse agreements. As to your partner's bidding, the short answer is that I am not too clear on what he thought he was doing. Maybe we can reconstruct something: Perhaps you were playing the dreaded Flannery convention? That would explain the non-spade response. Or maybe he just figured folks who have five hearts rarely hav four spades and he would get to play the NT if he bid it now. I don't know. After that, I can see how things got out of control. After 1H-1N-3H I personally prefer 4H (on this hand, for example, you can probably make 4H losing two hearts and a diamopnd while 3N is iffy), but I suppose 3N is OK. Now you bid 4C. Ah ha, says he, we actually have a fit. Partner doesn't know I have good support, an outside ace, and eleven points so I will bid a suit I clearly don't want to play in to indicate an unusual hand. 4S. (Probably you know in 2/1 that many play the auction 1H-1N-2D-2S as an exceptionally fine raise of diamonds, roughly a hand that would have bid a direct 2D in SAYC). So this might work. Now you bid 4NT. Blackwood, I suppose, or he supposes. 5D, I have an ace.

 

Once he bypasses his spade suit, it all makes sense in a weird sort of way. But if I were playing SAYC, Flannery, and a forcing NT (I often play what partner wants) I would bid 2C over 1H. And of course 1S over 1H if it isn't forbidden by system.

[kenberg]

I want to temporarily vary the N hand and the partnerhip agreement just a bit, for the sake of discusssion. Suppose N holds a 3-2-4-5 shape and an 11 count. Suppose also 2C is a forbidden bid because they are playing 2/1. Now the auction begins the same way, over 3H the 3N call is appealing (if partner's hearts cannot be developed in time the clubs may be enough to bring the total to nine), and so the auction will go exactly as shown up to 4C. Then what? No doubt 4S should show this hypothetical N hand allowing the pair to play in 5 or 6 clubs, as they think best.

 

Since 2/1 was not game forcing, N could and should avoid the confusion by straightforward bidding. As the bidding went, S must wonder how N could hold a hand to now invite 6C but not have bid 2C over 1H, even if he understands what it would be in 2/1. As it was, S simply wondered what on earth N was doing. A reasonable question.

 

This all reminds me of the "unlucky expert", the guy who always finds a super scientific bid that is, to him, a perfect description but to his partner is a great source of confusion. Witih a casual partnership, you bid the suits you have at your first opportunity. Not a bad idea in general.

[kgr]

First of all thanks for the answers.

- I didn't think of the 4♠ bid as a kind of superaccept for ♣'s, but that's probably what it was.

- We didn't agree on flannery, 1NT forcing,.... He had SAYC and 1NT forcing in his profile, I have SAYC in my profile.

- I did bid 4NT to give my partner the change to stop if he wanted and interpreted 5D as 1 ace. At that moment I was probably to confused and decided to pass.

- As someone mentioned: Probably my partner's bidding was Worldclass, but I rather prefer worldclass result then worldclass bidding :)

- The biggest problem was that partner left after the bidding instead of first playing the hand. (IMHO it would be better no to give bad points if somebody leaves when dummy, and being a lot stricter if somebody leaves in the middle of a hand when not dummy).

==========

After 1H-1NT it looks like most suggest to bid 2C followed by 3H - rather then 3H followed by 4C.

I choose 3H because 2C is not forcing and even if partner is minimal with eg 3=2=4=4 then 4H should often be a good contract.

Can somebody explain me why 2♣ is much better then 3♥ or isn't it that a big difference? Would you rather bid 3♥ with more intermediates; eg with AKJT9x?

[whereagles]

I don't think 2♣ is soooo much better than 3♣ unless you wanna get scientific and dig-up some rare club slam :)

[helene_t]

2♣ has the disadvantage of discouraging a club lead.

 

But one problem with 3♥ is that you won't pass partners 3NT now that partner denied 4 spades. So you bid 4♣ intended as a descriptive bid, but partner gets confused becuase you denied 4 clubs. Or maybe partner makes some scientific raise of clubs and you get confused. I think this could have been avoided if you had bid 2♣.

 

Natural bids at the 4-level create confusion because the 4-level is also used for all kind of silly slam conventions. Therefore, bid as low as possible so that you're finished discussing strain before you reach the 4-level.

 

But I agree that World-class results are better than World-class bidding. Especially when playing with some unsepcifc p with "SAYC with forcing 1NT" on his profile :)

[inquiry]

Your partners bidding is closer to world class idiot than world class bidder. Your bidding is more traditional. Let's assume SAYC (with or without 1NT forcing, btw, 1NT forcing is not SAYC).

 

1H - what else would someone open,.

 

1NT - He missed the fact that he had four spades and a singleton. The correct SAYC bid is 1S

 

3H - I think you assumed partner has two hearts. I am ok with 3H because the opponents have at least 10 spades (since partner didn't bid 1♠, no need to bid 2♣ and let them find their spade suit at the two level. Also, 2♣ is not forcing and your hand is fine. IF you are going to bid clubs, bid 3♣ not 2.

 

3NT - within the context of the auction, now he has no other choice

 

4C - They still have 10+ spades on this auction, your partner now rates to have one heart and three spades. A minor suit slam is beginning to look good. Show your four card suit.

 

4S - Out of the blue - denies a control in diamonds, Must show Club support, and shows some sort of spade control.

 

4NT - Depends upon partnership agreement as to rather natural or blackwood. I think in any pickup partnership, the default agreement had best be blackwood.

 

5D - Yup, I got one keycard in support of clubs (funny, he denies ♦Ace and then shows one key cards when holding two). No matter, you have been endplayed into bidding 6♣ and hope for a minor miracle in clubs. (hook wins and you can hold diamonds to one loser).

 

What did your partenr do wrong here?

 

1) Bid 1NT - instead of 1♠

2) Bid 4♠ instead of 4♦

3) Bid 5♦ instead of 5♥

 

Despite that, I am not sure how you can pass 5♦, he can not be introducing ♦ at the five level for the first time to play after you bid and jump rebid ♥ and then bid ♣.

[kenberg]

I have no problems with either 3H then 4C or with 2C then 3H. Myself, I think with this hand I would bid 3H, largely for the reasons you say. You expect partner to have at most three spades. Likely he has a couple of hearts and so 4H should be good if he has a little something. If he lacks hearts also then likely the hand belongs in a minor rather than NT and you can get it there by bidding 4C over 3N. If my hearts were shaggier I might try 2C and then (if there is a "then") 3H. But that's me and I have no clear thoughts on which is better. The real problem is that partner got too clever for his (and your) own good.

 

 

As to leaving after dummy comes down, I don't do that. Anyway, he could take it as a challenge. It isn't certain that 5D is going down. Probably, but not certain.

 

One other point: Since you are not playing 2/1 you can reason over 1NT: If partner has at most 3 spades, and at most one heart, then he must have at most a bad 10 count else he would have bid 2 of a minor instead of 1NT. He can't really have an 11 count with short hearts, so the hand belongs in hearts when he has hearts, and five not six of a minor when he doesn't have hearts. Minor suit slams really aren't, or shouldn't be, likely. This seems to make 3H a very reasonable bid, planning on a pull to 4C over 3NT. The main danger is that partner will have short hearts and will decide to pass when 5m would have made. This could happen.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Can somebody explain me why 2♣ is much better then 3♥ or isn't it that a big difference? Would you rather bid 3♥ with more intermediates; eg with AKJT9x?

<snip>

Hi,

 

the adv. of 2C is, that you show 9 cards,

opposite to 3H, which shows only 6 cards.

 

the adv. of 3H is, that you show your playing

strength, say +15/16-18/19 opposite to 2C,

which may still be a minimum opener,

 

Personnaly i bid shape, 2C wont get passed

out most of the time, with 2H and 3C partner

will always give preference to hearts, especially

if 2C could be bid on a 3 card suit

... no contradiction to the first entence, partner

should treat 2C as a 4 carder.

After that you could bid 3H, to show 6-4 and

+16/17HCP, if I recall it correct.

 

Take your pick.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[HeartA]

Agree with Marlowe. I usually like to show my second suit, unless the second one is tooooo weak, like AKQxxx vs. jxxx.