Assign the blame

[mr1303]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sat9hakqxdakjxxxc&s=sjxxxhjxxxdqxxcjx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Auction went as follows:

 

2C 2D

3D 3NT

Pass

 

With the obvious problem, which got us precisely 0% of the matchpoints. Who was most to blame?

[whereagles]

The system B)

[Codo]

The system is the first and right answer.

So I believe, that South has to bid in your system 2 ♦ and, not being interested in slam and some cards here, some there, 3 NT is reasonable.

 

For north, his first problem was the opening. He must decide at the fourth level, if he still should bid his second suit, if slam is possible, or 3 Nt the right spot.

 

In my view, his pass was wrong. 6 Diamond makes opps. Kxx,xxx,xxx,xxxx.

Or it is on the double finesse opps. Jxx,xxx, QTx,xxxx.

So he needs to know, if Pd has a fit and he should continue with 4 Diamond and raise pd 5 Diamond to 6.

 

I won´t find 7 Heart - not even (4 Heart) in a pick up partnership. With my std. part, we have a tool, which had worked well here. (Third hand of my life):

 

2♦ 2 ♥ 3♥ to show a gameforce with diamonds and exact 4 Hearts.

After pds 4 ♥ to confirm the fit, 6 Heart is quite easy, but the grand still nearly impossible to bid.

[Gerben42]

The system.

 

Agree with INTERNET pickup partnership I would not find 4♥ either, but with improved Rieneck std. notes (to be used with German pickup partners) I would.

 

2♣ (strongest bid)

- 2♦ (denies 2nd negative)

3♥ (GF 5+♦ 4♥)

- 4♥ (bad hand with ♥ fit)

6♥ (should have play then)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the system.

 

One could argue, that 3H instead of 3NT is better,

since3D does not deny a 4 card mayor suit,

but I am pretty sure, that I would have bid 3NT

myself most of the time.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

I would never pass 3N with opener's hand. Hey, you have 6430!

 

I also think responder should be raising 3D to 4D, especially as it is common practice to rebid 2N with semi-balanced hand despite a 6-card minor. If opener doesn't want to be raised on Qxx, he should not bid 3D. Possible auction 2C-2D-3D-4D-4H-5H-6H.

 

Arend

[pbleighton]

North, for opening a 2 suited 21 count 2C. Open it 1D.

 

Peter

[hotShot]

There are 2 things to blame:

 

1) Most of the blame goes to the system,

because a meaningless relay, is wasted biddingspace. And if South is not allowed to bid a 4card major after finding a fit.

 

2) What is left goes to north.

3NT is not a contract that should be accepted with a void.

What requirements are there for south to bid 3NT?

South should at least have 1-2 ♦ for communication. But there is nothing more we know. Since north knows nothing about the ♣'s stopper south might have or might not have, he should know that droping a ♠ looser on a ♣ stopper will always make 5♦. Or that ♥xxxx is good enough for trying 4♥.

[mcphee]

Those that look at this hand and blame the system are not taking the right view. It's the players who use the system where the fault.

 

1. While I can appreciate the desire to open 2C I strongly prefer 1D. Those that believe 1D will be passed out are dreaming.

 

2. To bid 3NT on the strenght of your partners C stop is a major joke. I agree that the alternatives of raising D or bidding a 4 card major are not stellar, but surely any choice has to be as good as 3N.

 

3. There is no excuse for passing 3NT. 4H could be argued should show a 5 card suit, but it is a weak argument I think. How about the idea of TELLING partner more about your hand?

 

My bet is that the player who bid 3NT would likely pass 4H anyway, although they should not.

 

To assingn blame, hmmm. I make it 60 north and 40 S.

[mikeh]

 

1. While I can appreciate the desire to open 2C I strongly prefer 1D. Those that believe 1D will be passed out are dreaming.

 

I am a 1♦ opener as well, but this hand comes close to showing the drawbacks of that style. I would respond 1♥ with the S hand, but take away any of the jacks and I would pass: there has to be a limit, else one is playing that 1♦ is a forcing opening, and you are no longer playing standard.

 

We who open 1♦ often say that we are unlikely to miss game if partner passes: change the S hand to xxxx Jxxx Qxx xx and we will miss a decent grand!

 

We usually argue that the opps will save us by balancing, but that is not as clearcut when we hold, between us, more cards in each major than they do: it is easy to construct hands on which E has the bulk of the missing hcp and not enough to bid over 1♦, leaving West with shortish majors and a weak semi-balanced hand.

 

Having said that, I open 1♦ :P

 

As it is, the 2♣ bidder should survive even if not playing a sophisticated method.

 

There is no way that S should bid 3N: he should bid 4♦ and now N bids 4♥, which should be a suit, not a cue-bid, but I can understand why some might disagree. So long as it is a suit, S should bid again: sure, he has crap: but it is working crap: that ♦Q is a huge card.

 

Can they reach grand? I suppose so, but I would be surprised if anyone did, and if they did, my bet would be that they were guessing.

 

I also agree that N, having opened 2♣, should stick to his valuation as a red game force and bid 4♥ over 3N. If partner, who is (I assume) relatively unlimited in hcp, bids 4N, then N can pass: this N hand is not a 9 trick hand: if 3N makes, the chances are good that 4N makes as well.

 

If N bids 4♥, then S has to realize that his meagre values are really working: I think that there is a good case for 6♥ over 4♥. Grand is impossible now: N cannot count on running the ♦ after 3N by S: S should not have primary ♦ support.

[jdonn]

What is all this talk about a grand!! You could choose what suit the opponents lead and the grand (I assume you mean in hearts) still has virtually no play. Tell me how you plan to make 7♥ on a trump lead. I'll even be generous, pretend your hearts are JT98.

[caigao]

System is one issue, but i think South shall take more blame if i am the one to assign.

 

North did not bid 2NT, it usually shows an unblanced hand. With South's hand, i'd prefer 2♥, even 4♦ is ok. 3NT was not an option. Reason #1, how did South know there's no slam in ♦s given the useful ♦Q and 3 card support? #2, North may have 4 card Major if ♦ suit was only 5 cards. If North has no 4 card major, more likely 5♦ or even slam is approachable. Also, 3NT by South is the wrong position to play.

 

BTW, those who talked about 1D or 2C opener did not consider South's hand at all. What if North had another ♥Q, isn't it a definite 2C opener? So South should still not bid 3NT.

[G_R__E_G]

What is all this talk about a grand!! You could choose what suit the opponents lead and the grand (I assume you mean in hearts) still has virtually no play. Tell me how you plan to make 7♥ on a trump lead. I'll even be generous, pretend your hearts are JT98.

 

As long as ♥'s break 3-2 and neither op has a diamond void you make the ♥ grand all day long.

 

Win the ♥J, ruff a ♣, low ♦ to the Q, ruff a ♣, ♥A, ♥K, run the diamonds pitching ♠'s.

[jdonn]

What is all this talk about a grand!! You could choose what suit the opponents lead and the grand (I assume you mean in hearts) still has virtually no play. Tell me how you plan to make 7♥ on a trump lead. I'll even be generous, pretend your hearts are JT98.

 

As long as ♥'s break 3-2 and neither op has a diamond void you make the ♥ grand all day long.

 

Win the ♥J, ruff a ♣, low ♦ to the Q, ruff a ♣, ♥A, ♥K, run the diamonds pitching ♠'s.

Brilliant. And did your opponents notice when you drew their last trump with the same card that you used to ruff the second club?

[mikeh]

What is all this talk about a grand!! You could choose what suit the opponents lead and the grand (I assume you mean in hearts) still has virtually no play. Tell me how you plan to make 7♥ on a trump lead. I'll even be generous, pretend your hearts are JT98.

 

As long as ♥'s break 3-2 and neither op has a diamond void you make the ♥ grand all day long.

 

Win the ♥J, ruff a ♣, low ♦ to the Q, ruff a ♣, ♥A, ♥K, run the diamonds pitching ♠'s.

A trump lead (and trump leads are common against grand) does complicate matters a tad :P

 

 

You cannot win the J, ruff a ♣, cross to the ♦Q, ruff a ♣ and then cash the ♥AK, unless you began with AKQxx in trump... which you did not: when you hold only 4 trump, you cannot ruff twice and still lead 3 rounds :D

 

Essentially, grand needs 3-2 trumps and a non-trump lead and, if they lead ♦, a 2-2 ♦ break... so it is not a good grand. Still, we've all seen worse contracts bid and made.

[jdonn]

A trump lead (and trump leads are common against grand) does complicate matters a tad :P

 

 

You cannot win the J, ruff a ♣, cross to the ♦Q, ruff a ♣ and then cash the ♥AK, unless you began with AKQxx in trump... which you did not: when you hold only 4 trump, you cannot ruff twice and still lead 3 rounds :D

 

Essentially, grand needs 3-2 trumps and a non-trump lead and, if they lead ♦, a 2-2 ♦ break... so it is not a good grand. Still, we've all seen worse contracts bid and made.

No no no, I said you can choose your lead! Make it on the spade king lead. Make it on a diamond lead. Heck, make it on a club lead. Pretend diamonds are 2-2, trumps are 3-2, and your hearts are JT98. See how generous I am?

 

(Ok you can make it on a club lead if your hearts are JT98. Whatever)

[HeartA]

System is one issue, but i think South shall take more blame if i am the one to assign.

 

North did not bid 2NT, it usually shows an unblanced hand. With South's hand, i'd prefer 2♥, even 4♦ is ok. 3NT was not an option. Reason #1, how did South know there's no slam in ♦s given the useful ♦Q and 3 card support? #2, North may have 4 card Major if ♦ suit was only 5 cards. If North has no 4 card major, more likely 5♦ or even slam is approachable. Also, 3NT by South is the wrong position to play.

 

BTW, those who talked about 1D or 2C opener did not consider South's hand at all. What if North had another ♥Q, isn't it a definite 2C opener? So South should still not bid 3NT.

I am on the same page with caigao.

[han]

I agree with all that mikeh and mcphee said about the bidding, and of course jdonn is right about the grand being nonsense.

[kenberg]

I don't particularly want to assign blame, but like several other responders I open this hand 1D. For one thing, if partner is truly broke it might not make a game anywhere. Yes there is probably a game but the fact there may not be offers you some protection. Secondly, on these shapely hands someone else usually has some shape, maybe several someones, and the auction seldom if ever dies at the one level. On the current hand, for example, the opponents have 11 clubs. I doubt 1D will be passed out, even if partner can't find a bid (with the Q in your suit, I think he could venture 1H). Thirdly, it's not hard to envision a 2C opening going exactly as this one has, and so you need to be thinking about what to do over 2C-2D-3D-3N before you open 2C. Nothing is certain, but opening 1D seems far more likely to work out well. Whether or not you will get to 6H after a 1D opening is uncertain, but at least you will get to hearts.

 

By the way, if the auction goes 1D-(3C)-pass-(4C) you have a better shot at finding the right spot, or a reasonable spot, than if it goes 2C-(3C)-pass-(4C). This also argues for opening 1D.

 

 

If I do open 2C then over 3N I bid 4H. With 6-4 and a void, and with partner just trying to do his best over 2C, I am not passing 3N. Of course 4H could be wrong, but that's why you don't open 2C.

[Fluffy]

Blame Norht for opening 2♣ wiht a 2 suiter.

[Finch]

This is a very unusual hand, because I have found on these forums I nearly always agree with mikeh, certainly more often than with anyone else. Even stranger, I open 2C less often than many people seem to. Still, he put the arguments for opening 2C very well.

 

- on this particular hand (major suit length, HCP), you could easily be passed out in 1D

- I don't mind so much opening at the 1 level if I might miss game to make the auction easier, but I prefer to open 2C if I am making slam opposite the right balanced 0-count (xxx xxxxx xx xxx has OK play for a heart grand)

- Even on the best possible start: 1D from me, 1 major from partner, I won't be able to find out if partner has the one or two key minor honours to make a small or grand slam; if I open 2C he will look favourably at various 5-counts.

 

Anyway, opening 2C wasn't the cause of the problem.

The initial 2D response is unobjectionale, as is the 3D rebid playing nothing fancy.

Responder's second call is very tough indeed. I gave the hand to my two regular partners (without knowing opener's hand) and one bid 4D and the other 3H. Neither bid 3NT, though I actually admit to some secret sympathy for 3NT at matchpoints. It can't promise a stop in every suit!

 

The worst call in your auction IMO was opener passing 3NT. Looks like a clear 4H call: tell partner what you have. You still might be making slam while going off in 3NT. Although it's possible to construct hands where 3NT is the best spot, you can get out into 4NT on some of them. I can't construct that many hands where 3NT makes and 4NT and 5D don't (Jxxx xx xx QJ10xx or similar, possibly).

 

I imagine I would end in 5 or 6 diamonds on these hands.

 

By the way, while I'd like to say that 2C - 2D - 3D - 4D - 4H is natural, I bet you'd bid 4H on something like

 

AQx

AKQ

AKJ10xx

x

[whereagles]

The worst call in your auction IMO was opener passing 3NT.

Well, why not allowing that

 

2♣ 2♦

3♦ 3♥

 

can be made on 4 cards? Better to miss the 5-3 fit if opener now rebids 3NT than the 44 fit if responder is unable to bid 3♥ with his 4 carder.

 

Besides, if responders would-be 5 card heart was any good, he might have tried 2♣-2♥ already.

 

If you see what I mean...

[inquiry]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sat9hakqxdakjxxxc&s=sjxxxhjxxxdqxxcjx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Auction went as follows:

 

2C 2D

3D 3NT

Pass

 

With the obvious problem, which got us precisely 0% of the matchpoints. Who was most to blame?

Since in another thread I showed the multi-2♦ opening with an acol 2 in a minor, I will answer here that this was an unforunate auction for the system being played. For me the bidding would have been.

 

2♦-3NT

6♥-Pass

 

Where,

 

2♦ was either weak either major, 23=24 balance or acol 2 in either minor

 

3NT = 4-4 (precisely) in the majors, raising the preempt in the majors

 

6♥ = practical bid in uncharted waters. 4♦ here would be acol two in the minor and get you raised to 5. 4♥ would be to play, 5♥ would not be helpful since you hold AKQ, how is partner to bid on? So you have to "gamble" on 4♥ or 6♥ here.