Kalvan14 Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa987532h5dj8ca65]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] An easy hand, and an easy question: do you open this hand? If yes, which is your choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Depends completely on system Playing a standard sound opening system like BBO Advanced I'm passing. The hand is too weak for a 1 level openingThe hand is too badly flawed for an opening preempt I'll probably regret this later since many auctions where I might like to introduce Spade are going to be interpreted as fit showing. Playing a light opening system like MOSCITO, I'm going to open at the one level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted March 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Playing SAYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Playing SAYC Shouldn't SAYC threads be in the Beginner/Intermediate forum? ;-) Playing SAYC, I'll probably open 1♠ and make minimum spade rebids there on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Depends on what pd expects. If she can expect this on 1S, I bid 1S. Otherwise, I bid 2S. I am not as disciplined a bidder as Richard. No way I pass this one, in any system I would choose to play. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Easy 1 Spade bid. Simply too much to pass, too bad suit for a preempt, just 7 loosers, easy rebid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hi, Pass. It depends on the req. regarding a 1S opening bid and regarding apreempt. For me the hand is to weak to open,... and I agreed, that a preempt does not contain 2 Aces, hence pass. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hi, Pass. It depends on the req. regarding a 1S opening bid and regarding apreempt. For me the hand is to weak to open,... and I agreed, that a preempt does not contain 2 Aces, hence pass. With kind regardsMarlowe I have the same partnership agreements so I agree totally. B) Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Easy 1♠ in any system except strong pass B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 1♠, wtp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am going to buck the trend here. This is an opening hand, but there is a key point missing in the discussion. We are vulnerable. When I open a vulnerable weak two, it is better than a non-vulnerable one. How does this apply to this hand? If I open 1♠ and then rebid spades, partner will naturally assume I have long spades and a hand too good for a weak two. Since the "bar" has been raised on what a weak two is (due to the vulnerability), partner will assume I have a better hand than I actually hold. I am not fond of weak twos with poor quality suits, I am not fond of weak twos with side Aces, I am not fond of weak twos on a seven card suit (makes it hard for parnter to judge level to compete). Having said all of that, on this hand I would open 2♠ (or the equivlant if playing multi). For offense, the seventh spade makes up for the lack of a second spade honor, and the second ace gives me roughly the amount of defense partner will expect. Perfect solution, no. But then what is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am opening 3♠. I am glad I am vulnerable... at least so far: I may end up regretting the whole thing. I just can't quite bring myself to open 1♠: give me the ♠J and I would be happy doing so. If you think that the ♠J is insignificant, consider the implications of finding a stiff honour in dummy... that J will be very important. As for a weak 2: count me out... maybe in 2nd seat but not in first. Tough problem: I can sympathize with any plausible call but pass: we are going to be very unhappy if the opps get to the 3 or 4 level in ♥ before we get a second chance to bid (amongst other awkward sequences) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 1♠ automatic, two defensive tricks. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 1♠ is sick in my opinion. Count me down for 3♠, having two aces doesn't bother me at all. One potential disadvantage is not enough reason to lose all the advantages that preempting gives you. At least after 3♠ you don't have to make further difficult decisions. After 1♠ you will have all sorts of guesses later about whether to pull partner's eventual 3NT bid, whether to bid again if the opponents start interfering in hearts, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am a 2S bidder. 3S would be my second choice but I don't like the suit quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'll pass. Usually hands like this don't pass out, and I feel I will be able to judge whether to enter the auction later. Between the two aces and the bad suit quality, I don't think this hand is right for a preempt. It's too likely to go down if partner doesn't have much of a spade fit, on hands where opponents are not particularly making anything. Now, this isn't to say that I would never preempt with two aces or a bad suit, but these are both negatives, as is the vulnerability. What about a one-level opening? I generally try to think about what will happen if partner game forces on a non-fitting hand. I know this is an unpopular view in this day where people just assume a fit and open on a prayer, and claim that if they end up somehow in a 22-hcp misfit 3nt (down several) it was just unlucky. But my feeling is that if I open and partner game forces when we can't make any game, I'm 100% stuck. If I pass and we have some magic fit, it is often the case that someone else (maybe an opponent) will open and we may well manage to get to a good spot anyway. On this hand, if I open and partner has some 13 count with a singleton spade, I expect that we will not make a game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am a 2S bidder. 3S would be my second choice but I don't like the suit quality.It's not totally unreasonable and I know why you did it, but I have gotten really bad results from doing this. This isn't one of those times where people say that something (like for example weak notrumps) gives them bad results when really they don't have a clue and are just biased, I truly can remember several terrible scores that were directly attributable to weak two bids on seven card suits. Besides you have to admit, isn't 2♠ the kind of bid you want your opponents to make on this hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am a 2S bidder. 3S would be my second choice but I don't like the suit quality.It's not totally unreasonable and I know why you did it, but I have gotten really bad results from doing this. This isn't one of those times where people say that something (like for example weak notrumps) gives them bad results when really they don't have a clue and are just biased, I truly can remember several terrible scores that were directly attributable to weak two bids on seven card suits. Besides you have to admit, isn't 2♠ the kind of bid you want your opponents to make on this hand? Do I? I really don't like passing with long suits, and my pre-empts tend to be very conservative red, so partner knows I have a decent hand. It does depend on partnership style... Note, of course, that both of my regular partnerships play intermediate 2's (9-12 or 10-13 with 6/7 cards) so this hand certainly qualifies there and wouldn't be a problem hand, but I wasn't assuming this treatment, but I was asssuming that partner knew my pre-empting style. I had seen disasters with P, 1S,2S and 3S with this hand type. We seem to have a different view of what were the bigger or more frequent disasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am going to buck the trend here. This is an opening hand, but there is a key point missing in the discussion. We are vulnerable. When I open a vulnerable weak two, it is better than a non-vulnerable one. How does this apply to this hand? If I open 1♠ and then rebid spades, partner will naturally assume I have long spades and a hand too good for a weak two. Since the "bar" has been raised on what a weak two is (due to the vulnerability), partner will assume I have a better hand than I actually hold. I am not fond of weak twos with poor quality suits, I am not fond of weak twos with side Aces, I am not fond of weak twos on a seven card suit (makes it hard for parnter to judge level to compete). Having said all of that, on this hand I would open 2♠ (or the equivlant if playing multi). For offense, the seventh spade makes up for the lack of a second spade honor, and the second ace gives me roughly the amount of defense partner will expect. Perfect solution, no. But then what is? I'm shocked Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 This isn't one of those times where people say that something (like for example weak notrumps) gives them bad results when really they don't have a clue and are just biased, I truly can remember several terrible scores that were directly attributable to weak two bids on seven card suits. I can truly remember several terrible scores that were directly attributable to weak notrumps. :) Seriously, anybody who plays weak notrumps regularly for several years should be able to remember both good and bad scores that are a a direct consequence of opening 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'm shocked Ben. So shocked that I see you forgot to mention your choice. Both 1♠ and 2♠ are flawed, but for the life of me I can't see bidding 3♠ on this hand. I wouldn't worry too much about 1 or 2, and in fact, if dealt it without thinking too much I would 1♠ at all vul, but only upon reflection have I decided the not perfect bid of 2♠ when vul is better than the not perfect bid of 1♠. Not vul, I reverse the choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Adam said: On this hand, if I open and partner has some 13 count with a singleton spade, I expect that we will not make a game... So, there are possible lay-outs where opens 1S will work out badly. It is equally clear that there are possible lay-outs where opening 1S will work magically. Perhaps you are right that the former is more likely, I am not quite convinced by your arguments. My thoughts are more in the line of Joshs's, passing with a 7-card suit is not attractive and it is really not my style. 1S, 2S and 3S all have serious flaws. I'd like to have a better suit when I'm opening 1S this light, and I certainly want a better suit for a vulnerable 3S bid. Only 2S is left and I can live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'm shocked Ben. So shocked that I see you forgot to mention your choice. Both 1♠ and 2♠ are flawed, but for the life of me I can't see bidding 3♠ on this hand. I wouldn't worry too much about 1 or 2, and in fact, if dealt it without thinking too much I would 1♠ at all vul, but only upon reflection have I decided the not perfect bid of 2♠ is better than the not perfect bid of 1♠. I was just kidding, but I did expect you to open 1S (29 Zar with spades!). I might open 1S when playing with you, it is my second choice after 2S (see above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 my 2 cents (now $4.99: inflation) I selected to open 1S, 3 reasons (besides zars)1) have spades, master suit, can always correct the bidding if things go poorly and P keeps making unwanted bids. Not sure I could always do this if my suit happened to be hearts. 2) Most partners that I have had will never play me for 2 aces with a weak 2 bid. Anyway, vul, my weak 2 bids tend to become more textbook-like or closer to the template of KQJ6th and whatever outside. The bid tends to imply where the concentration of values is located. I might be more inclined to open 3S than 2S. At least Hx in spades along with decent hand should give P a chance to set up spades and then enter my hand via club in 3NT. and, with any 3-card spade support, Partner likely will raise to 4S, hopefully shutting down the opps. My problem with 3S is that I have more defense than P might expect. 3) I do have 2 quick tricks for defensive purposes should the opps start opening their mouths. At least I'll provide some of the defense that P will expect with a 1-bid. ho-hum: enjoyDHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 my 2 cents (now $4.99: inflation) I selected to open 1S, 3 reasons (besides zars)1) have spades, master suit, can always correct the bidding if things go poorly and P keeps making unwanted bids. Not sure I could always do this if my suit happened to be hearts. 2) Most partners that I have had will never play me for 2 aces with a weak 2 bid. Anyway, vul, my weak 2 bids tend to become more textbook-like or closer to the template of KQJ6th and whatever outside. The bid tends to imply where the concentration of values is located. I might be more inclined to open 3S than 2S. At least Hx in spades along with decent hand should give P a chance to set up spades and then enter my hand via club in 3NT. and, with any 3-card spade support, Partner likely will raise to 4S, hopefully shutting down the opps. My problem with 3S is that I have more defense than P might expect. 3) I do have 2 quick tricks for defensive purposes should the opps start opening their mouths. At least I'll provide some of the defense that P will expect with a 1-bid. ho-hum: enjoyDHL Finally somebody saying something sensate! Gee I thought everybody had gone crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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