Distinguish between 3-/4-card support by advancer

[42]

Hi all!

Let's assume the bidding goes (opp's bidding in brackets)

(1♦) 1♠ (pass) ???

and you have 10+ points and support with a.) 3 ♠s and b.) with 4 ♠s.

Do you have a method to distinguish between a.) and b.)?

Is it important to have one?

What does 2NT show here?

Thx :P

[mike777]

Hi all!

Let's assume the bidding goes (opp's bidding in brackets)

(1♦) 1♠ (pass) ???

and you have 10+ points and support with a.) 3 ♠s and b.) with 4 ♠s.

Do you have a method to distinguish between a.) and b.)?

Is it important to have one?

What does 2NT show here?

Thx :P

i can bid 2D as an often limit raise 8 ltc hand

In general a 3 card 8Ltc hand needs more than a 4 card limit raise 8 ltc hand ok?

I can bid 3D as some mixed raise....often....9 ltc hand with 4 card support. Often 8.5 ltc...too weak for limit ...too strong for preemptive....

 

1s=3s=weak preemptive.

 

note none of these hands count hcp they count LTC style.......

[Codo]

I distingush these hand via 2 ♦, which does not promise a fit and a Spade rebid later and 2 NT what will promise 4+ Spades. 10 HCPS are more then sufficent for both bids.

I don`t know, if it is usefull to have method to show 3 card vs. 4 carf support.

[cherdano]

Here is what I play with Han, probably a popular structure:

2♥ = 3-card raise, 9+ pts (2♥ not 2♦ because we play transfers there, but that shouldn't make a difference)

2♠ = 4-8 pts, 3-card raise

2NT = inv+ 4-card raise

3♦ = mixed raise (4-card support, a bit of shape and a bit of hcp)

3♠ = weak 4-card raise

 

I have no strong opinion whether 2N is more useful as a raise or as a natural invite. I do have a strong opinion, however, on methods where 2♦ can have a fit, but does not promise one.

 

Arend

[Chamaco]

Here is what I play with Han, probably a popular structure:

2♥ = 3-card raise, 9+ pts (2♥ not 2♦ because we play transfers there, but that shouldn't make a difference)

2♠ = 4-8 pts, 3-card raise

2NT = inv+ 4-card raise

3♦ = mixed raise (4-card support, a bit of shape and a bit of hcp)

3♠ = weak 4-card raise

 

I have no strong opinion whether 2N is more useful as a raise or as a natural invite. I do have a strong opinion, however, on methods where 2♦ can have a fit, but does not promise one.

 

Arend

I have toyed with such a scheme, but I was puzzled by the following question:

what do you bid with a 2-4-3-4 hand (e.g. only 2 card support) that has all of the following ?

 

- no stopper (does not want to bid NT from the wrong side). This is fundamental to me, I do not want to bid any number of NT without a stopper.

- invitational + values opposite the standard for your 1-level overcalls (say advancer has 12 hcp), so that you want a 1RF bid without promising fit and without promising a 5 card suit ?

 

The answer to these questions revolves on the use of the meaning of 1NT and 2C.

 

There are many players who believe that 1NT should be natural (e.g. the price of giving up the natural 1NT avance would be too high).

 

If this applies, then it seems to me that we are left with 2C as the only 1RF bid without support without a stopper ?

 

Is it how you play ?

And, even more important, how would you bid the same hand-type (balanced or 4441, good hand, no stopper, no support) if the opening bid had been 1 club ?

[cherdano]

Well yes, the hands where you would like to make a responsive double, but unfortunately RHO refused to make a raise are indeed a problem. However, don't you have exactly the same problem in standard?

 

So, if you would bid 2♥ in standard, you can bid 2♦ showing hearts playing transfers (ok, probably you have a problem next round, but there is hope...). If you would bid 2♣ in standard, you can still do that. If the opening bid was 1♣, and you have 4-4 in the red suits, you can transfer to diamonds and bid hearts -- sounds like better than anything you can do in standard.

 

However, I would not be as rigorous as you about 1N promising a stopper. You are sitting in front of opener, so partner's hoped-for stopper won't be misplaced. And if his opening bid was a minor, you don't know anyway what his best suit is.

 

Arend

[joshs]

Here is what I play with Han, probably a popular structure:

2♥ = 3-card raise, 9+ pts (2♥ not 2♦ because we play transfers there, but that shouldn't make a difference)

2♠ = 4-8 pts, 3-card raise

2NT = inv+ 4-card raise

3♦ = mixed raise (4-card support, a bit of shape and a bit of hcp)

3♠ = weak 4-card raise

 

I have no strong opinion whether 2N is more useful as a raise or as a natural invite. I do have a strong opinion, however, on methods where 2♦ can have a fit, but does not promise one.

 

Arend

I have toyed with such a scheme, but I was puzzled by the following question:

what do you bid with a 2-4-3-4 hand (e.g. only 2 card support) that has all of the following ?

 

- no stopper (does not want to bid NT from the wrong side). This is fundamental to me, I do not want to bid any number of NT without a stopper.

- invitational + values opposite the standard for your 1-level overcalls (say advancer has 12 hcp), so that you want a 1RF bid without promising fit and without promising a 5 card suit ?

 

The answer to these questions revolves on the use of the meaning of 1NT and 2C.

 

There are many players who believe that 1NT should be natural (e.g. the price of giving up the natural 1NT avance would be too high).

 

If this applies, then it seems to me that we are left with 2C as the only 1RF bid without support without a stopper ?

 

Is it how you play ?

And, even more important, how would you bid the same hand-type (balanced or 4441, good hand, no stopper, no support) if the opening bid had been 1 club ?

You want to know what I would bid with Ax xxxx KQxx Axxx after

(1H)-1S-P-?

I would make a 3 card limit raise (2H)

With A xxxx KQxx Axxx I would manufacture a 1N bid.

I think with hands this good you need to make a noise, but underbid by a few points since you have no strain...

[Chamaco]

Well yes, the hands where you would like to make a responsive double, but unfortunately RHO refused to make a raise are indeed a problem. However, don't you have exactly the same problem in standard?

 

In standard you can just cue, promising - usually - a semibalanced hand that MIGHT have -or not- 3 card support (or, alternatively, a huge game/slam going hand).

Often the 5-3 fit will play well even in NT.

 

The 4 card raise can go via 2NT (and various other kind of raises- FJS and Robson-Segal stuff...)

 

However, I would not be as rigorous as you about 1N promising a stopper.

 

Well, the 1NT bid can be shaded, so I thought of biddding 1NT without a stopper but, couple of issues:

 

1) after all, rightsiding the contract seems to be a major issues for lots of people (last time I played vs you and Han you were playing a xfer advance system whose most useful feature seemed to be exactly that, e.g. putting on lead the most dangerous opp...)

 

2) 1NT is a limited bid; many play it as 8-11, but, no matter what rang you choose (according to the overcall style), there will be hands too good for a 1NT call, hands that would love to be able to stop in 2NT or 2M if pard is broke.

These hands need a 1RF bid

 

3) rare enough, but still to be considered, especially if opps open light: slamgoing hand in a minor

there will be hands without a fit in the major that might foresee slam in a selfsufficient minor.

 

 

Hence the need for a forcing bid without a fit for overcaller's major

In "standard" (is there any??) the forcing bid is the cuebid.

[keylime]

I don't have method to discern three vs four card support, but instead I have ways of showing types of hands:

 

1. Defensive limits -> simple cuebid, or lower cuebid when both opps are bidding.

2. Offensive limits -> 2NT, or upper cuebid when both opps are bidding

3. Jump cue of opener -> mixed raise, i.e. the Bergen 4 card constructive

4. 2NT when both opps are bidding -> G/F, many hand types.

[han]

Here is what I play with Han, probably a popular structure:

2♥ = 3-card raise, 9+ pts (2♥ not 2♦ because we play transfers there, but that shouldn't make a difference)

2♠ = 4-8 pts, 3-card raise

2NT = inv+ 4-card raise

3♦ = mixed raise (4-card support, a bit of shape and a bit of hcp)

3♠ = weak 4-card raise

 

I have no strong opinion whether 2N is more useful as a raise or as a natural invite. I do have a strong opinion, however, on methods where 2♦ can have a fit, but does not promise one.

 

Arend

I have toyed with such a scheme, but I was puzzled by the following question:

what do you bid with a 2-4-3-4 hand (e.g. only 2 card support) that has all of the following ?

 

- no stopper (does not want to bid NT from the wrong side). This is fundamental to me, I do not want to bid any number of NT without a stopper.

- invitational + values opposite the standard for your 1-level overcalls (say advancer has 12 hcp), so that you want a 1RF bid without promising fit and without promising a 5 card suit ?

 

The answer to these questions revolves on the use of the meaning of 1NT and 2C.

 

There are many players who believe that 1NT should be natural (e.g. the price of giving up the natural 1NT avance would be too high).

 

If this applies, then it seems to me that we are left with 2C as the only 1RF bid without support without a stopper ?

 

Is it how you play ?

And, even more important, how would you bid the same hand-type (balanced or 4441, good hand, no stopper, no support) if the opening bid had been 1 club ?

You are asking what we do in this structure when we have (1) a good hand, (2) no suit of our own, (3) no support, (4) no stopper. This is just as much a problem hand in standard, why does this struture make you worried about this hand?

 

The options you have are identical to those you have in standard: as Joshs suggests, you can make up a 3rd spade and bid 2H. Alternatively, you can show clubs or hearts (if you hav a good 4-card suit) followed by 2S.

 

 

Since this structure gives up on the natural 2NT call, it is the hand that would bid 2NT in standard that can create problems. With that hand I would likely bid 2C and bid 2NT next, depending on what happens after 2C.

[Chamaco]

The options you have are identical to those you have in standard: as Joshs suggests, you can make up a 3rd spade and bid 2H. Alternatively, you can show clubs or hearts (if you hav a good 4-card suit) followed by 2S.

Ok, so you are saying that 2C would be forcing 1R and basically substitutes the cuebid in "natural" systems ?

 

That's fine.

 

Now another question.

 

Let's assume you have the same hand type (good hand, no support for pard's spades, no stopper), and the opening bid had been 1C.

 

What is the forcing bid ?

Is 2C here a natural cuebid ?

What would be the meaning of 2D ? Would 2D show diamonds, natural, or xfer to hearts ?

 

Would 2H be a good spade raise ?

 

==================================

 

Final question: in this framework, what is the general plan to handle, say a hand like the following when opps open clubs and pard overcalls spades ?

 

x- AKx-AKQJxxx-xx

(if you have better example, please show them , I am not good at constructing hands)