Matchpoint bidding

[Trumpace]

You are South and hold:

 

xx, Ax, AQTx, KQ9xx

 

opponents are silent throughout (only E/W are vul)

 

Partner opens with 1S. Bidding goes:

 

1S - 2C - 3C - 3D* - 3S** - ?

 

What do you do now?

 

* 3D shows stopper in diamonds

** 3S denies stopper in hearts.

 

Assume strong field and first board (i.e you do not know the state of the match).

[hrothgar]

3N

 

Rather contract for 9 tricks than 10 or worse yet 11

[pbleighton]

It depends on whether 3C is strict SAYC - if it is it promises extra values, as the responder has promised a rebid.

 

If so, I think you should make some kind of slam try - though this auction as it has developed is not suited for it, unless you have specific agreements.

 

If 3C is NF, tending to be minimum, bid 3NT.

 

Peter

[inquiry]

If one presumes that 3♣ by parnter showed EXTRA values, then I think you have to bid to a slam in clubs. If 3♣ was just support noise, at matchpoints, you have to bid 3NT.

 

Slam should be no worse than 50% if partner has extras, and could be a lot better than 50%. Even if you invision his hand as something totally horrible like: KQJxx xx xxx AJxx you have some play (not much) for 6C (4!D tricks). And come on, this is no where near a 3♣ bid. Give partner a respectiful hand for his bidding, he will have AK or AQ of spades, Diamond king and club ace when he has no HEART honors. Without diamond king, he will have better spades for a heart pitch from your hand.

[pbleighton]

"If one presumes that 3♣ by parnter showed EXTRA values, then I think you have to bid to a slam in clubs. If 3♣ was just support noise, at matchpoints, you have to bid 3NT."

 

Ben, I see that you failed to answer the same question as I did. Without agreements, other than literal SAYC, how would you bid to a slam, given the auction to 3S?

 

I have to confess that I would just bid 6C. Better idea?

 

Peter

[Kalvan14]

I suppose that the bidding should go on something like:

4♥ (cue-bid) - 4♠ (cue bid, and certainly the ace) - 4N (last train; certainly not RKC).

 

Alternatively, 4♥ - 4N (denying spade A, but showing extras: KQJxx xx Kx Axxx)-6♣.

 

There is not much pard can have for his opening once he denies a stopper in hearts. 6♣ should be there 9 times out of ten.

[pclayton]

If you wanted to bid 3N, you should have done it on the prior round. I simply don't see the rationale of bidding your hand out with 3♦ and then 'reluctantly' bid 3N.

 

I really despise 3N now. If you are a 3N bidder, I would have more respect for you if you try a semi-psyche of 3♥ followed by 3N. That auction might just buy you a diamond lead.

 

The opponents (unreluctantly) will lead a heart and you will get to scramble for 9 tricks. Hopefully pard holds the A♣ AND the K♦ or the AKQ♠, otherwise your task may be a daunting one.

 

In the meantime, 5 or 6♣ seems to be a lot less painless and 6♣ looks playable opposite a lot of hands North rates to have.

 

If playing 2/1, I will mark time with 4♣. If playing standard, I will cue 4♦ and see if that wakes pard out his slumber.

 

1f 4♣ / 4♦ are key card; thats fine too. I'm not sure I can find out more on this hand by cueing or keycarding, but I don't think thats the theme to this problem.

[han]

Agree with Phil, if you were going to bid 3NT then you should have done so earlier.

[HeartA]

Agree with Phil, if you were going to bid 3NT then you should have done so earlier.

Agree with Hannie.

[jdeegan]

:rolleyes: 4♥

I agree with most commentators, when you didn't bid 3NT, you more or less committed the hand to clubs. This ain't so bad considering that you have all but directed a heart opening lead versus 3NT.

 

3NT may go down with 5-3 hearts when 5♣ makes:

AKxxx

Jxx

Kx

J10x

 

Six♣ may roll on 4-3 diamonds:

AKxxx

xx

KJ

Jxxx

 

Pard may hold extras. Even a modest amount helps the case for continuing on in clubs (ruff the fourth diamond with the club jack):

AKxxx

xxx

Kx

AJx

 

I like bidding 4♥ here. It suggests slam, and pard knows full well we have bypassed 3NT. When pard has real junk, but help in hearts, a 4NT bid ought to be to play - not RKC.

KJ10xx

QJ

Kxx

Axx

will likely tie the 3NT field.

[kenberg]

I also vote for 4H. Even if 3C didn't promise much in extras, it didn't deny extras (unless 3C was passable, which few play). Even if slam is not there, bidding 4H may not be a mp disaster since it may well be that 5C and 3N both make exactly. And while perhaps 3N makes and 5C doesn't, the reverse is also possible. My guess is they both make, and perhaps they both make more and I don't want to give up yet on a slam. If partner bids 4S over 4H I'll bid 5C only, asking his views on 6 (I must have had some reason to do this cuebidding before bidding 5C), while if he bids 5C over 4H I'll pass.

 

I hope you will show the actual hands, since I am far from certain I am right here.

 

k

[Finch]

Once you decide not to play 3NT, surely you should bid 4C, giving partner room to cuebid the DK?

 

While you might say 3D initially showed a diamond stop, once you have decided against playing 3NT or 4S, and are looking for slam, partner should assume 3D was natural and cuebid accordingly.

 

Mind you, 3NT is not such a bad bid. Partner is entitled to pull it with many of the hands where clubs play better. He knows you only have one heart stop.

[mikeh]

I agree with Frances about the need to bid 4♣: bidding 4♥ is horrible.

 

As for bidding 3N earlier, at the risk of revealing more about why I am not a good mp player, I really do not understand the logic at all.

 

We have an extra ♣ and at least an Ace more than we promised for 2♣, so to give up on slam opposite a virtually unlimited partner is weird.

 

And as for trying to get a ♦ lead rather than a ♥ lead: have any of you looked at your hand? Add to that the fact that we now know that partner either lacks a ♥ stopper or is too good to bid 3N....

 

Finally, consider that our auction may have allowed us to avoid a poor 3N in order to play a great 5♣ (or slam). If partner, as he has hinted, lacks a ♥ stopper: now you had better be able to run 8 side winners after the ♥ lead: the lead you were getting 80% or more of the time had you blindly bid 3N over 3♣.

 

Give partner an innocuous hand such as KQJxx xx Kx Axxx and he has little reason to pull 3N even if you had taken the 3♦ call first (yes, your slow route to 3N suggests doubt, but the doubt might have been based on extra values, not lack of stoppers) while he would pass at the speed of light had you bid 3N over 3♣.

[mike777]

Once you decide not to play 3NT, surely you should bid 4C, giving partner room to cuebid the DK?

 

While you might say 3D initially showed a diamond stop, once you have decided against playing 3NT or 4S, and are looking for slam, partner should assume 3D was natural and cuebid accordingly.

 

Mind you, 3NT is not such a bad bid. Partner is entitled to pull it with many of the hands where clubs play better. He knows you only have one heart stop.

Ditto since we are not allowed to assume kickback in sayc.

[pclayton]

I hope I didn't imply that I like 3N on the previous round; far from it. I think 3♦ is fine; but it think its a flawed strategy to try 3♦ and then 3N (unless pard tries 3♥).

 

I'm also changing my strategy; I think 4♣ is fine whatever you are playing. Surely its forcing after a high reverse.

[kenberg]

The 4C bidding produces:

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S 4C

 

Maybe I'm crazy but this sounds to me as if responder with his 3D bid was hoping partner had a heart stop and could bid 3NT. Finding no heart stop he bids 4C hoping his partner can bid 5, but not forcing him to. Maybe five clubs, a thirteen count, a diamond stop, no spade fit, and definitely no heart ace. Given the hand I just described, how would you bid it if not in the way the auction above has gone?

[mike777]

The 4C bidding produces:

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S  4C

 

Maybe I'm crazy but this sounds to me as if responder with his 3D bid was hoping partner had a heart stop and could bid 3NT. Finding no heart stop he bids 4C hoping his partner can bid 5, but not forcing him to. Maybe five clubs, a thirteen count, a diamond stop, no spade fit, and definitely no heart ace.  Given the hand I just described, how would you bid it if not in the way the auction above has gone?

yes 4c has to be played forcing in SAYC if that is what you are asking if

2c=does not force to game

3c=does not promise extra shape or hcp

4c=you give up the ability to play in 4 of a minor.

 

otherwise you need to play 3c as showing extras which may be true in sayc?

[mikeh]

The 4C bidding produces:

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S  4C

 

Maybe I'm crazy but this sounds to me as if responder with his 3D bid was hoping partner had a heart stop and could bid 3NT. Finding no heart stop he bids 4C hoping his partner can bid 5, but not forcing him to. Maybe five clubs, a thirteen count, a diamond stop, no spade fit, and definitely no heart ace.  Given the hand I just described, how would you bid it if not in the way the auction above has gone?

You're not crazy (as far as I can tell :P ), but I think those who favour 4♣ as forcing (as I do) base this upon the assumption that 3♣ by opener showed extra values and thus created a game force.

[Trumpace]

These were the hands.

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=skqjtxhqxd9xcajtx&s=s9xhaxdaqtxckq9xx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

[kenberg]

Thanks. Rest of stuff withdrawn. Too much wine while reading.

[kenberg]

5C pretty safe I guess, 3NT beats 5C or loses to 5C depending on lie of opponents cards. I suppose 3NT is the right mp bid since it beats 5C when the king of hearts is with W, and has a weak play to make (K and J of diamonds both right) when the play begins heart, Q, K, Ace. I suppose there is an issue of whether, at mps, you shoud try to risk the double finesse (when opponents hearts are set up at the beginning) or just settle for losing the hearts and a spade, and claiming. Since 5C will be making, it seems right to try to make 3N even if it will go down more if wrong.

 

6C is far from hopeless if the king of hearts is with W but not an odds on bet even then. Mostly I guess it makes when both red kings are right and fails otherwise. Maybe they will lead a diamond. Dream on. But they might.

 

Appears that at mps, a risky 3N is slightly better than a safe 5C, and 6C is inferior to both.

 

4S, if you can get there, must be the best bet. Riskier than 5C, less risky than 3N, likely to score an overtrick.

 

My original remarks, withdrawn above, were wildly optimistic about the chances of 6C.

 

All in all, I still bid 4H over 3S.

[Finch]

6C seems to need not a great deal more than 3NT i.e. the HK on lead.

 

4S is the best matchpoint spot.

It's an interesting question if

1S - 2C

3C - 3D

3S- 4C

4S

 

is a cue bid or an attempt to play in 4S.

I think, on this auction, it is the former though there are quite a few auctions where it is the latter.

[kenberg]

There are many issues of style that arise with this hand.

 

Let's look at the N hand for a bit. Holding spades and clubs, I really want to be able to open 1S and raise 2C to 3C. Since S could have less, and still have bid 2C, I would like to be able to pass 4C if it continues:

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S 4C.

 

 

On this auction I (looking at the S hand) would expect defenders to cash the AK of hearts and the A of spades.

 

 

But would I, as N, bid 3S over 3D? I think I might try 3H. Since, at this point, partner seems to be asking me to bid 3N if I have a heart stop it seems 3H denies a heart stop but suggests some partial values. With no values in hearts I would rebid my spades, trusting partner will trot out 3NT if he thinks that's the place to play when I have nothing in hearts. Now, with a hypothetical Ax of spades and 9x in hearts, I would expect S to bid 3S over 3H which will get us to 4S. With the actual S hand, I imagine S bids 3N over 3H, which may or may not work out well in mps. Eleven or maybe twelve tricks if the king of hearts is right, a good chance of defeat if it is wrong. If people can get to 4S on this combined holding I congratulate them. Whether I and a partner could get to the fairly icy 5C even at imps is not clear.

 

 

Frances says that 6C requires not much more than 3NT. So I said in my withdrawn post above, and maybe at the table it is true. W hears an auction where dummy will be producing a source of tricks and so he may well attack with an agressive lead. If W holds the king of hearts then leading either red suit leads to 12 likely tricks. That may well happen. If a passive lead of a club, or a somewhat surprising lead of the spade ace starts the proceedings, it gets tougher. There are four red losers, there are three pitches on spades. If E holds the diamond king you are home, if W holds it you may be able to set up a squeeze but you should probably be suspicious of them allowing it to develop (Say you get a trump lead, E follows, and you draw trump, leaving one in the dummy for an entry to the spades. A spade is now led, the A is taken, a spade returned. You cannot take your winners in the proper order to run a squeeze.). Basically I think you better hope for a red card at trick 1, or the king of diamonds with E. It's not that good a slam.

 

K

[kenberg]

One could spend all day on this hand. Just for fun:

 

Suppose that you get to 4S (inspiration has struck). Suppose the lead is a small heart. Now what? Going up with the ace and starting on trump should give you 11 tricks, barring bad breaks. Further, you don't relish playing low, losing to the king, and seeing a shift to a stiff club. But! Playing low loses to the king only when W has the king, and in that case the NT bidders are making 11 tricks, at least. It seems that at matchpoints you must play low. If it loses, you could never have beaten the NTers. Again, the right contract at mps depends heavily on who holds the king of hearts.

[Finch]

At matchpoints I would rise and take my 11 tricks.

It's true that I'm losing to 3NT played with the HK on lead, but I'm beating everyone in game in clubs and everyone who plays 3NT with the HK not on lead.