More Negative Double Continuations

[Stephen Tu]

1♣-(1♦)-dbl(1)-(p);

1♠-(p)-2♠

 

(1) both majors

 

What range is 2♠ without discussion? What's best, with discussion?

 

I had a 5-4-3-1 7 count, and thought 2♠ was just a blocking maneuver, as I thought there was a better chance of 2♠-all pass, which I preferred to hearing something like ... 1♠-(p)-p-(2♦);p-(p)-2♠-(p);-p-(3♦)-?. I thought to invite game I could bid 3♠. My partner on the other hand interpreted 2♠ as a milder invite, blasted game, and ended up down 2.

 

Unfortunately the books I have don't seem to cover this auction in sufficient detail. Neither do most web sites. Only one I found was Pavlicek's system, & he seems to agree with my view about responder's raises to the 2 level. What do you think?

[jdonn]

I don't know that there is a standard range for 2♠ without discussion. I sort of equate this auction to something like 1♣ dbl p 1♠ p 2♠ where in the good old days it showed extras, and nowadays depending who partner is it could be extras, 'good' minimum, or any old double with four spades, and you would have a hard time finding a consensus on which meaning is standard. In fact Jeff Goldsmith did a poll on that topic among about 12 good players, and on the scale from hard extras to any hand with four spades the answers essentially formed a uniform distribution, there was no agreement at all.

 

On your auction I feel that the modern style would be 2♠ on something like you held. Incidentally, a 5431 7 count is sort of a 'milder invite', no? Not quite worth an invite, but could still make game opposite the perfect minimum.

 

By the way, doesn't the same issue pertain to opener's 1♠ bid? He knows of an eight card fit and might well want to bid 2♠ at his first turn to confirm it, perhaps except on a 4333 hand or any totally junky balanced hand. Would some hardline LOTTers say partner's 1♠ bid guarantees only a three card suit? I don't know, but I'm glad not to be one of those people in any case. All in all, the topic you bring up is anything but straightforward.

[joshs]

Without discussion, I would have assumed that 1S showed either:

a. only 3 Spades and no other good bid

b. A dog min with 4 spades (12-13)

 

Catering to a, which ismoderately frequent, I think a 2S bid there is just constructive values and is often 5 trumps. I would expect:

a. 4 trumps and 8-10ish

b. 5 trumps and 6-8ish

 

Its hard to imagine a hand that could only bid 1S all of a sudden deciding that he was worth 4, but I can imagine making a (non-forcing) 3'rd bid on occasion...

[han]

What Joshs sketches seems the best way to play 2S here, I would hate to pass with the given 5-4-1-3 7-count. I would expect that my partner would read it this way too without discussion, but you never know.

 

I don't think that this auction is quite the same as the auction Jdonn mentions. Here we know much more about both hands: we have at least 4-4 in the majors, and partner has a minimal opening hand with 3 or 4 spades. So 2D can safely be used as a game try, while the auction (1m)-Dbl-p-1S-p-2D shows a variety of typically very strong hands.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would say, 2S shows the same as in the seq.

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2S,

 

i.e. nothing special.

 

The 1D overcall gave you the chance to describe

your hand with one call (dbl), and you did use this

opportunity.

You also gave your side the chance, to catch them.

If you pass 1S, the partner to the overcaller is still on

the table and may show some life.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

It is safe to say that all GOOD negative doubles responders rebids go through either a jump to 3♠ no or 2♦ cue-bid (do you play negative double and then cue-bid game force? Seems waste).

 

I also think the raise to 2♠ shows minimumish negative double and tends to show five spades. Why five? Becasue partner might have only 3. This give you LOTT protection and helps with some magic fit games if partner is on top for his 1♠ call with 4♠'s. BTW, 1♠ can show more than a dog 13 with four spades. :-) Just not a lot more.

[Stephen Tu]

Guess there doesn't even seem to be good standards for opener's 1♠/2♠ rebids. I've seen good players/authors espouse both styles

(1) 1♠= 3 or very min, 2♠=sound min w/ 4+

(2) 1♠= any min, 2♠=significant extras, ~= 1♣-1♠-3♠ uncontested, maybe slightly less but not a lot.

[Kalvan14]

2♠ should be mostly pre-emptive. If the double shows both majors, any bid at 2-level should be fit-showing in spades and invitational, while the cue-bid is a forcing raise.

[jdeegan]

:rolleyes: 2♠ doesn't show much, and it is not very invitational, imo. You won't often have five spades(i.e. be 5-4 in the majors). Pard won't often have just three spades (i.e. be 3-2-3-5 distribution with no diamond stop). Your 7 HCP with four trumps and a singleton (I hope this is what you meant by 7 pts) is a pretty fair hand (almost a limit raise) opposite most of pard's one spade bids. If he is "on top", then 4♠ may be on, e.g.

 

KQ9x

Ax

xxx

A9xx

 

Axxx

Kxxx

x

108xx

[inquiry]

In a very large Bridgebrowser database (16+ million hands), the auction,

 

1C-1D-DBL-P

1S- P-2S

 

Came up 605 times (I limited the 1C opener to 15 hcp to remove likely precision auctions from the mix).

 

Of these auctions, the average hcp count for 2S was 8.9 pts (this was the holding)

HCP Frequency

 5     8

 6    28

 7    73

 8    98

 9   181

10   146

11    60

12     8

13     3

 

Perhaps the surprising finding was the 2♠ rebid was based on a 4 card suit 93% of the time.

 

The jump to 3S average 2 full points more than the 2♠ rebid again was based on 4 card suits. At least here I understand, with 11 or so hcp and five spades and 4/5 hearts you can afford two bids, 1♠ then hearts later.

[hatchett]

Perhaps the surprising finding was the 2♠ rebid was based on a 4 card suit 93% of the time.

 

That does seem high but I don't think opener will bid 1 ♠ on a 3 three card suit very often. If you play imho, sensible methods, whereby a 1NT rebid shows a balanced hand (a diamond stop being irrevelant) then you will rebid 1♠ on a three card suit virtually never. Even if you don't play this then you will presumably bid 1♥ on 3-3 in the majors so 1♠ will at best rarely be a three card suit, so raising to 2♠ on a minimum with 4 card suit is hardly ridiculous.

[joshs]

The rarity of a 5 card suit and the relative high point count both correlate highly with another fact: After the 1D overcall, both opps kept passing...

[Chamaco]

Could the 2NT bid by responder be used as artificial good, forward-going, spade raise (as opposed to a blocking 2S) ?

 

Or is the price of giving up a natural NT invite too high ?