When you don't stop your own suit

[Fluffy]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sa972h10974dq2cq109]133|100|Scoring: IMP

N - S

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♦

2♠-??

[/hv]

[P_Marlowe]

2NT, wtp?

 

Partner did ask for a spade

stopper, I have one.

 

It would not be first time, that one

did bid a suit consisting of 2345 to

prevent the lead of the suit in NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

How can people be voting for 2NT? That shows xxxx KQJx xxx xx. 3S seems really obvious to me, I don't see a problem at all.

[jdonn]

2NT, wtp?

 

Partner did ask for a spade

stopper, I have one.

 

It would not be first time, that one

did bid a suit consisting of 2345 to

prevent the lead of the suit in NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

He did not ask for a spade stopper, he is bidding out his shape. Partner is 3154 or close to it.

[whereagles]

3♠. Isn't this a bluhmer or something ..?

[P_Marlowe]

2NT, wtp?

 

Partner did ask for a spade

stopper, I have one.

 

It would not be first time, that one

did bid a suit consisting of 2345 to

prevent the lead of the suit in NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

He did not ask for a spade stopper, he is bidding out his shape. Partner is 3154 or close to it.

Hi,

 

probably a matter of partnerhip

aggreement, but for me 2S is

fourth suit, I prefer simple

agreements.

 

... And I dont think, that showing

a strong 3 spade card suit makes

sense in the given seq, do you

really want to play in spade?

 

If you dont tell the opponents that

heart is a great lead, sometimes they

dont lead it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

I think 3S shows this sort of hand (no heart stop, hard values in the other 3 suits) but you are minimum for the call. Ideally you would have 3-card diamond support, but you still might reach 5D (6D?) opposite

 

Kxx

x

AKJxxx

AKxx

 

The advantage of not bidding 2NT is that partner could have extra high cards and nowhere to go, such as

 

Qx

Kx

AKJxx

AJ8x

 

when you would rather be playing 3NT from partner's hand.

[jdonn]

3♠. Isn't this a bluhmer or something ..?

No, a Bluhmer would in a suit you (not partner) have already bid, and is usually a jump though it doesn't have to be. The classic auction would be something like 1♦ p 1♥ p 1♠ p 1NT p 2♣ p 3♥ would be a Bluhmer, maybe showing Ax xxxx Ax Qxxxx. On this auction you might be able to make the case that 3♥ should be a Bluhmer, but clearly 3♠ is natural.

[awm]

3♠ seems to pinpoint all aspects of the hand.

 

(1) It's suggesting a 4-3 fit. Partner won't have four spades in this auction, and we don't normally respond 1♥ with five spades (barring a 5-6 hand that won't be bidding 2♦ over 2♣).

 

(2) Why are we suggesting a 4-3 fit rather than bidding notrump? Weak hearts seem the obvious reason.

 

(3) Why are we forcing the three-level on a 4-3 fit? This bid must show a bunch of useful cards, since 2♠ here is not forcing to game and we could try to get out to three of a minor with a bad minimum.

 

So 3♠ describes the hand beautifully: four spades, weak hearts, and enough useful cards to want to reach a game if partner feels the 4-3 fit will be playable. Of course it's not out of the question that partner has 3-0-5-5 or 3-0-6-4 and we will end in a minor.

[han]

Clearly partner is roughy 3-1-5-4 with a good hand. All our cards seem to be working, but for which game? 3S seems right, I will raise 4C to 5C, 4D to 5D and pass 4S.

[Finch]

I disagree that raising spades shows 4. We could equally be 3433.

Partner is not showing a 3154: what is he supposed to bid with a good 2254?

[JohnnyH7]

Partner is not showing a 3154: what is he supposed to bid with a good 2254?

2N? 4th suit forcing when partner failed to jump shift the round before makes no sense. If he wanted to game force opposite a minimum, he would have bid 3C over 1H. His bids all show extras and are patterning out.

[jdonn]

2NT, wtp?

 

Partner did ask for a spade

stopper, I have one.

 

It would not be first time, that one

did bid a suit consisting of 2345 to

prevent the lead of the suit in NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

He did not ask for a spade stopper, he is bidding out his shape. Partner is 3154 or close to it.

Hi,

 

probably a matter of partnerhip

aggreement, but for me 2S is

fourth suit, I prefer simple

agreements.

 

... And I dont think, that showing

a strong 3 spade card suit makes

sense in the given seq, do you

really want to play in spade?

 

If you dont tell the opponents that

heart is a great lead, sometimes they

dont lead it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Partner does not have 3 strong spades (unless he has potential slam interest), he has 3 weak or antipositional spades, if they were strong he would bid 2NT himself. 4th suit forcing is a convention that only applies to responder's rebid, not to later bids in complicated auctions. Though sometimes the fourth suit may have a degree of artificiality to it, that is not strictly part of the convention, and would not apply here without strange agreements.

 

Also, it's not just a question of telling them what to lead or not. For one thing they may just be able to switch to hearts later (Kxx x AJxxx AKJx) if you bid a poor notrump contract. For another this could be a slam auction with your key queens, particularly if partner is void in hearts, so it's important to show him the nature of your values (KQx - AKxxxx KJxx). It's true he could bid 3D on that, but it's clearly more useful to try and direct your attention to which major suit you have values in. He can always bid 3D if you bid 2NT to complete the picture.

[pbleighton]

Isn't 2S 4sf?

 

3S for me - pd forced me to bid, so I bid.

 

Peter

[han]

I disagree that raising spades shows 4. We could equally be 3433.

Partner is not showing a 3154: what is he supposed to bid with a good 2254?

With a good 2-2-5-4 partner can often bid 2NT. But ok, I'll conceed that partner doesn't need to be 3-1-5-4, why on earth would we bid 3S with 3-4-3-3 shape?

 

While 2S doesn't need to suggest spades as possible contract, I think that 3S definitely does.

 

A similar situation is an auction like 1m-2m-2H-3H. Assuming that 2m is forcing and may contain a 4-card major, 2H may show just a fragment, but 3H definitely suggests playing in hearts.

[Fluffy]

2♠ can be some shapes I guess 3154, 2155 with very good ♠, 3064 with bad ♦ and 3055 with bad ♣, and maybe 3145 is possible on some partnerships (not in this case actually). 2254 will bid 2NT.

[Finch]

2254 will bid 2NT? Without a spade stop?

[JohnnyH7]

2254 will bid 2NT? Without a spade stop?

2254 with have his choice of 2H, 2N, or 3D depending on honor structure, none being ideal. I have never heard of bidding 2S with this shape, ostensibly showing short hearts. That seems like the biggest misdescription.

[mike777]

3S

 

Whatever it means I think I got.

I do not have a great hand but I could have so much less for 2D.

[joshs]

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP. Since you have already bid hearts partner can bid 2N on many of these hands, so partner tends to be suity. There is also a slight chance partner might be 2155 with weakish clubs (KQ x AKJTx Axxxx) but I don't really expect that.

I expect sonething like Kxx x AKxxx AKxx. I can't imagine HHx in spades unless partner has a heart void.

 

My spades are a bit weak to play a 4-3 fit but I do have the ace. Opposite the expected hand you would need diamonds to break to make 4S (even if you added the diamond J the defense HH would force you to play 2 rounds of trumps and then attempt to get rid of both heart losers before someone ruffed).

Add the CJ and 5C is OK. Add the DJ and and 5D is decent.

 

 

Your possible bids are:

a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

b. 3S (INV with 4 spades, but its unclear how to get back to another strain)

c. 3C

d. 3D

e. 4C (I think not good enough for this)

 

What I would do with this hand largely depends on how much I trust my partner to explore all strains. 3S is the most descriptive bid, but I am more interested in playing 5D than any other game contract, so I hope he will bid 4m over it with a max and an extremely strong suit and pass with a normal min 2S bid. Liek I said, at mps I will pass and take my +140 or +170

[hatchett]

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP

Your possible bids are:

a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

 

 

Pass!

 

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

 

Kxx

x

AKJxx

AKxx

 

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

 

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

 

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

[Fluffy]

This hand is a good game.

 

Kxx

x

AKJxx

AKxx

 

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

 

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

Actually with 18 (not trash 18) partner will likelly bid 3♣ instead of 2. Partner is 16-17 (very good 15 is maybe possible)

[Kalvan14]

2♠ is a FSF, and in normal situations you'd raise it with 4 cards. However, opener cannot have 4 spades: he is establishing a GF situation, either aimed to play 3N (should be the majority of the cases) or with a very unbalanced hand in the minors, and in the latter case he will bid on.

3♠ is the last thing he wants to hear (and, IMO, in this auction should show an insufficient stopper in spades).

2N is the most practical and flexible re-bid: advancer hand is not too strong, but the minor Qs are very good cards, and the A in spades too. Let's hear what pard re-bids now: 6m might easily be there

[easy]

is using fourth suit forcing by the opening bidder a new treatment? How can the opening bidder deny a game force (by not jump shifting) and after partner takes a preference now use fsf? Granted with xx kx akjxx akxx i would certainly like it to be but...... since i dont think its applicable id choose 3c rather than 2 and apologize if we got too high. with qx kx akjxx aqxx id jump to 2nt and hope pard held at least jxx.

 

thus in my opinion 3s should be a good hand 3154 and as such i raise to 3s since spades certainly could be the place to play.

[joshs]

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP

Your possible bids are:

a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

 

 

Pass!

 

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

 

Kxx

x

AKJxx

AKxx

 

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

 

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

 

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

Which game contract were you proposing?

A9xx T9xx Qx QT9

Kxx x AKJxx AKxx

 

3N requires 4-4 hearts or a bad blockage (about 33%)

 

On the defense of heart heart (the normal defense vs a game level moysian), 4S requires 4-2 or better in spades ( 84%) AND 3-3 diamonds (36%) or the player with 4 trumps having 4 diamonds (a bit less than 48*24). Total=about 40%

 

5D requires 4-2 or better diamonds (84%) and clubs coming in (53%)=44%

 

5C requires 3-3 clubs and 4-2 or better diamonds=30%

6C requires the same as 5C.

 

Even if you wanted to get to a 40% game, its not trivial to insure that you get to the best game contract.

remove the DJ, and things get worse (4S becomes around 30%, 5D becomes about 18%, etc.)