Bridge leagues

[y66]

Does BBO support a bridge league concept?

 

If someone wanted to start a bridge league, for example, to promote bridge and competition among colleges and universities, corporations, corresponding alumni and retiree groups, or groups of any kind, would it be possible to do this on BBO?

 

Is someone already working on this promotion angle at BBO, WBF, ACBL or other?

 

I don't see anything when I search the forum.

[Sigi_BC84]

BBO is currently lacking the necessary features to comfortably set up a team league. I have suggested this in some other thread, and we are all patiently awaiting developments. The main problem is that predealing hands in team events is a pain in the neck, and I think that would be necessary to run a fair league.

 

Having a league, or multiple leagues for teams on BBO would be AWESOME.

 

--Sigi

[uday]

I think you can run a league here now if you are willing to track the results yourself. I don't believe predup hands are a requirement. Am unsure of the demand for this sort of thing.

[csdenmark]

Does BBO support a bridge league concept? 

 

If someone wanted to start a bridge league, for example, to promote bridge and competition among colleges and universities, corporations, corresponding alumni and retiree groups, or groups of any kind, would it be possible to do this on BBO? 

 

Is someone already working on this promotion angle at BBO, WBF, ACBL or other?

 

I don't see anything when I search the forum.

There are one - I think still living.

 

Ray's Bridge Ladder. You find links via Public Clubs on BBO.

 

There have earlier been several attempts - I think all failing due to much enthusiasm but in the long run not sufficient seriousity. BBO-Poland I think was the longest living attempt.

[wojela]

Hi

We want to re-establish Internet Bridge League. May be in may or june. We have the software and now look for people who want to help us.

Everybody can send mail to me, if have free time

wojela@bridgebase.com

Regards

Ela Wojciechowska - wojela

[Myon]

I think you can run a league here now if you are willing to track the results yourself. I don't believe predup hands are a requirement.  Am unsure of the demand for this sort of thing.

Afaict, currently there is no way to have a 3-teams match. One can do 3 independent team matches, but then everyone is idle for 1/3 of the time.

[paulg]

I have posted before about the difficulty of running teams in a league. If you are considering running a league, then I suggest establishing set dates and times for the matches.

 

I know that this causes problems between the many timezones, but if this is stated at the outset then I believe you will have a more successful, and less stressful, competition.

 

I'm unsure why preduplicated hands are needed (surely this can only lead to potential security problems) and, personally, would prefer Uday & Fred's time to be spent on enhancing team games rather than a league. In fact I'd rather see a 4 x 6 board Swiss Teams supported. although I'm not sure I'd want to direct it!

 

Paul

[Fluffy]

2004-2005 or so Nexus was running a junior league to help them train against each other. But I think it is not running any more

[andych]

YES Rays Bridge Ladder is still living!

To save you some efforts, below are the links

http://www.rays.ustc.edu.cn/ladder/Bridge/

http://www.rays.ustc.edu.cn/ladder/BridgeTeam/

 

 

Does BBO support a bridge league concept? 

 

If someone wanted to start a bridge league, for example, to promote bridge and competition among colleges and universities, corporations, corresponding alumni and retiree groups, or groups of any kind, would it be possible to do this on BBO? 

 

Is someone already working on this promotion angle at BBO, WBF, ACBL or other?

 

I don't see anything when I search the forum.

There are one - I think still living.

 

Ray's Bridge Ladder. You find links via Public Clubs on BBO.

 

There have earlier been several attempts - I think all failing due to much enthusiasm but in the long run not sufficient seriousity. BBO-Poland I think was the longest living attempt.

[y66]

Rays Bridge Ladder is using team match capabilities already supported in BBO.

 

Their league (ladder) is self-organizing and all league support functions, except actual match play, are managed outside of BBO.

 

Simple. Beautiful. It works.

 

Conclusion: The bridge league concept is feasible for self-organizing leagues that use ladders.

 

Thanks for the posts!

 

p.s.

 

Is there any interest in bridge leagues? There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence for this at the moment. Of course, there wasn't a lot of interest in fantasy baseball before 1980 either.

 

I know one thing. Bridge players love to compete. And who doesn't love to root for their favorite teams, especially the ones they're on!

 

Bridge is a partnership game. Can it also succeed as a club sport? Club sports are player-oriented, not organization-oriented. So, if bridge is ever to become a club sport, guess where the impetus will come from?

[csdenmark]

Rays Bridge Ladder is using team match capabilities already supported in BBO. 

 

Their league (ladder) is self-organizing and all league support functions, except actual match play, are managed outside of BBO.

 

Simple.  Beautiful.  It works. 

 

Conclusion:  The bridge league concept is feasible for self-organizing leagues that use ladders.  

 

Thanks for the posts!

 

p.s.

 

Is there any interest in bridge leagues? There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence for this at the moment.  Of course, there wasn't a lot of interest in fantasy baseball before 1980 either.  

 

I know one thing.  Bridge players love to compete.  And who doesn't love to root for their favorite team, especially the ones they're on!  

 

Bridge is a partnership game.  Can it aslo succeed as a club sport?  Club sports are player-oriented, not organization-oriented.  So, if bridge is ever to become a club sport, guess where the impetus will come from?

If you have a partner I will be interested to join. I have no health for captaining.

 

My partner and I plays Bocchi-Duboin club 2001 incl. much brown-sticker features, but such no problem on the ladder.

 

We can start with 4 persons, but best with 6. We are both europeans - that will work if you have New York time - else not.

[HueRay]

We're currently run both pair and team KO beside normal ladder challenges in rays ladders. All matches are scheduled and played privately. The KO coordinator/commissioner make input through the web administration page quite easy. If necessary, I'd like to help and implement a league format team web site.

 

Hue

[Sigi_BC84]

I think we are quite interested, Hue. Thanks for the offer, I'm just looking at your site, it looks really great. Some dedicated league support would be good (should not be too hard to implement).

 

Probably it would be best to start with a league for each of the major timezone (Americas and Europe, maybe Asia too).

 

--Sigi

[andych]

Rays Bridge Ladder is simply awesome.

A BIG thank to Hue for his wonderful work. :P :)

 

And welcome Hue to the Forum. :lol: :lol:

[csdenmark]

We're currently run both pair and team KO beside normal ladder challenges in rays ladders. All matches are scheduled and played privately. The KO coordinator/commissioner make input through the web administration page quite easy. If necessary, I'd like to help and implement a league format team web site.

 

Hue

I was impressed to see Hue that the ladder after how many years I dont know - but I have known it for approx. 5 years. Your ladder was the point for me to create a really good friendship with Gary - we both miss him I think!

 

I am not exactly sure Hue - but as I remember the software BBO-Poland has will support what you may intend here. To me it looks like a cooperation that way over wil be a good way to take advantage from what already is there. Alex is the person to contact - I think you have him via Messenger - else I can help you.

[Sigi_BC84]

I'm unsure why preduplicated hands are needed (surely this can only lead to potential security problems) and, personally, would prefer Uday & Fred's time to be spent on enhancing team games rather than a league. In fact I'd rather see a 4 x 6 board Swiss Teams supported. although I'm not sure I'd want to direct it!

The main reason why I'd like to have preduplicated boards (or equivalent support directly within BBO) is the following:

 

Especially if the matches are short, you want all teams participating in the league to play the same boards, simultaneously, against their respective opponent for the given round of the league. Otherwise, you add some unnecessary randomness to the league, because there might be more swinging boards in one match than in another, for the same round of the league. Of course one can argue that this doesn't matter much or evens out over time.

 

Also I find it very appealing to be able to compare your own results with those from other matches in the same league round.

 

The third advantage is the ability to rank all pairs (in addition to the teams) for each given round using Butler scoring or Cross-IMPs.

 

Some minor advantages are increased security that the boards are truly random (if you're really serious) and that it's easier to integrate them with your web site for the league (you don't have to extract the lin files from the web first).

 

The biggest disadvantage is that you have to have the teams playing simultaneously or you have to be able to rely on the fairness of all teams not to look at existing results.

 

I admit that it's all not strictly necessary and that the current features are enough to get a league running, but I think it would be much nicer to use predup boards (if you can coordinate the teams).

 

--Sigi

[andych]

I think we are quite interested, Hue. Thanks for the offer, I'm just looking at your site, it looks really great. Some dedicated league support would be good (should not be too hard to implement).

 

Probably it would be best to start with a league for each of the major timezone (Americas and Europe, maybe Asia too).

 

--Sigi

Hmm......but a league for each of the major timezone does not sound appealing to me.

 

The beauty of Rays Bridge Ladder, as well as BBO is that we can play with anyone all over the world.

[Sigi_BC84]

Hmm......but a league for each of the major timezone does not sound appealing to me.

 

The beauty of Rays Bridge Ladder, as well as BBO is that we can play with anyone all over the world.

The timezone leagues would make it much easier to schedule dates for the matches. Of course you would be free to play in another timezone if that suits you better (e.g. if you like to play at night).

 

Keep in mind that we're talking about teams of people here, that is you have to schedule EIGHT people, not two or four.

 

Edit: just think about the typical working hours. If you have a few people in each team working a 9-5 job, that pretty much kills the idea of matching teams up across the pond (unless they are all ready to play on weekends, which quite often is family time).

 

--Sigi

[andych]

I'm unsure why preduplicated hands are needed (surely this can only lead to potential security problems) and, personally, would prefer Uday & Fred's time to be spent on enhancing team games rather than a league. In fact I'd rather see a 4 x 6 board Swiss Teams supported. although I'm not sure I'd want to direct it!

The main reason why I'd like to have preduplicated boards (or equivalent support directly within BBO) is the following:

 

Especially if the matches are short, you want all teams participating in the league to play the same boards, simultaneously, against their respective opponent for the given round of the league. Otherwise, you add some unnecessary randomness to the league, because there might be more swinging boards in one match than in another, for the same round of the league. Of course one can argue that this doesn't matter much or evens out over time.

 

Also I find it very appealing to be able to compare your own results with those from other matches in the same league round.

 

The third advantage is the ability to rank all pairs (in addition to the teams) for each given round using Butler scoring or Cross-IMPs.

 

Some minor advantages are increased security that the boards are truly random (if you're really serious) and that it's easier to integrate them with your web site for the league (you don't have to extract the lin files from the web first).

 

The biggest disadvantage is that you have to have the teams playing simultaneously or you have to be able to rely on the fairness of all teams not to look at existing results.

 

I admit that it's all not strictly necessary and that the current features are enough to get a league running, but I think it would be much nicer to use predup boards (if you can coordinate the teams).

 

--Sigi

I am not impressed by pre-duplicated hands neither...... :P :)

[Sigi_BC84]

I am not impressed by pre-duplicated hands neither.....

Well, as I said, it would be a nice bonus, not really necessary.

 

Actually it's even possible to upload hands into the team matches, but its an awkward process and will lead to a lot of trouble in practice.

 

Maybe I should not have called it "predup". What I actually want is the ability to synchronize the boards between different tables. Maybe we'll get that one day, until then I'm fine with taking what we have for running leagues.

 

--Sigi

[uday]

Sigi, what do you mean by "synchronize the boards between different tables." ?

[andych]

Hmm......but a league for each of the major timezone does not sound appealing to me.

 

The beauty of Rays Bridge Ladder, as well as BBO is that we can play with anyone all over the world.

The timezone leagues would make it much easier to schedule dates for the matches. Of course you would be free to play in another timezone if that suits you better (e.g. if you like to play at night).

 

Keep in mind that we're talking about teams of people here, that is you have to schedule EIGHT people, not two or four.

 

Edit: just think about the typical working hours. If you have a few people in each team working a 9-5 job, that pretty much kills the idea of matching teams up across the pond (unless they are all ready to play on weekends, which quite often is family time).

 

--Sigi

I recall there were discussions on splitting BBO. As far as I recall, the majority does not want e.g. BBO Asia/BBO America/BBO Europe.

And I am so glad that BBO hasn't split so far.

 

From the rules page of Rays Bridge Ladder

Match time and place

The teams involved determine the time and day for a challenge match. E-mail is the primary method for working together to set up the play date and time. It is a good idea to send a copy of the confirmed time to joaopneves@hotmail.com at least twelve hours in advance of the match. This message should include the names of both teams in the message, preferably in the subject and should include the Challenge ID. This step can be waived if both teams agree.

 

If a time cannot be agreed upon during the challenge period, then a win by forfeit will be awarded to the challenger unless the challenged team signs in to the web site before the challenge deadline and uses the ladder software to "lock" the challenge and request that the challenge be withdrawn. This must be done before the challenge deadline. Requests made after the challenge deadline may not be considered. If the challenger objects to this request, the administrator will review the challenge. Either or both teams may be required to produce copies of e-mail correspondence supporting their claims.

 

While both teams are expected to work together to schedule the challenge, the challenged team is particularly required to show that they've made a good-faith effort to schedule the challenge. Good-faith effort generally means that at least 3 specific times were offered during reasonable times. This is a general standard and is subject to the judgment of the administrator. The administrator will also consider the challenger's effort. If the challenger does not make sufficient effort to schedule the challenge then the administrator may choose to withdraw the challenge or to give the challenged team a win by forfeit.

 

The administrator will also take into consideration the time zone differences. If the teams' time zones are 6 or more hours apart, the administrator may choose to withdraw the challenge. The teams are still expected to try to work out a time. If they can't, the administrator may consider a formal request to withdraw the challenge.

Simple. Beautiful. It works.

Appears that we do not see eye to eye on this.

Sorry if I sound offensive.

 

 

:) :) :lol:

[csdenmark]

Regarding time-zone play the problem is mostly in Asia, especially far-east.

 

Most playing on the ladder now - also so earlier - are europeans and americans. Hopefully that will be able to change.

 

The hardest problems I have experienced is in fact not between time-zones but inside the european time-zone. Dinner time is a crucial problem. Time for that differs approx. 4 hours between North- and South-Europe. Something like time difference London/Buenos Aires.

 

My position is the same as Andy's, we can manage with good will.

[y66]

Regarding time-zone play the problem is mostly in Asia, especially far-east.

 

Most playing on the ladder now - also so earlier - are europeans and americans. Hopefully that will be able to change.

 

The hardest problems I have experienced is in fact not between time-zones but inside the european time-zone. Dinner time is a crucial problem. Time for that differs approx. 4 hours between North- and South-Europe. Something like time difference London/Buenos Aires.

 

My position is the same as Andy's, we can manage with good will.

Yes, manage with good will. And good scheduling tools. Scheduling is a huge problem, not just in bridge. Not a coincidence that this problem has already come up on this thread. The ladder format provides built-in flexibility Maybe league support tools can help here, directly, or via tie-in with web calendar software, like Trumba. Also, if teams are required to post availability (say, a minimum of 1 or 2 time slots per 10 day sliding window), this can make it easier to schedule matches. Adds an interesting strategic element as well.

[Sigi_BC84]

Sigi, what do you mean by "synchronize the boards between different tables." ?

I'm just saying that it should be possible to have all tables in a team event play the same boards.

 

In a league you want to pair the teams in a certain way and have them play a certain number of boards. Maybe you want to swap the pairs after the middle of the round. What I want is that all tables in such a setup play the same boards, without having to manually inject boards into each of the tables.

 

--Sigi