missed slams

[42]

Hi!

Yesterday I was clearly in a chicken mood and missed 2 slams (system was SAYC). What I would like to ask you is to give me the arguments WHY I must bid what to reach them:

 

1. [hv=d=n&v=b&n=s63hk9dq2cakq9654&s=saq10952hda87cj1082]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♣ pass 1♠ 2♥

3♣ 4♥ ?[/hv]

What is the best bid now? Opp bids 5♥ if possible.

 

2. [hv=d=n&v=b&n=s63hk9dq2cakq9654&s=saq10952hda87cj1082]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♣ pass 1♠ 2♥

3♣ 4♥ ?[/hv]

Thx :)

Caren

[hatchett]

1. I don't think 6♣ is far adrift as a value call. I'd be more worried about missing seven than six I think.

 

Seven might be difficult to bid, but I could start with 5♥, and if partner bids 5♠, try 5NT, but it's a little murky. 6♣ directly is a practical call.

 

2. I'd start with 4♣ showing big club support, should be easy to bid the grand now after a couple of heart cue-bids from south. It nearly always works well to clarify the trump suit in these auctions as early as possible, 3♣ doesn't get the job done since it could be the start of looking for the right strain on a game hand. (I'm a little surprised you didn't get to a small slam on these cards though).

[cherdano]

1. Yes you have a huge hand, I would bid 5H. If partner guesses right that this is a void, he has an easy 6♣ call.

 

2. I would bid 3♣, since I would expect more distribution for 4♣, and also because giving partner space to bid out his shape might help. Partner will raise to 4♣, then I would expect a 4H cue and 4N RCKB if you play that here.

 

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1)5H, 3C should show a 6 card suit, which means

you have 6-4 fit, so just follow the old saying

"6-4 bid one more"

2)3C, hopefully you play 2NT as Lebensohl in this seq.

else you would need to bid 3D, if you should make

a move over 3NT is unclear, it depends on the strength

of your reverse bids, more precise: what is the lower

end.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

1) Opps won't bid 5♥ cause I bid them myself !

 

2) 3♣ forcing as I have 2NT to stop (lebensohl)

[42]

1) Opps won't bid 5♥ cause I bid them myself !

Is it clear that we want to play in ♣? Do you give up a possible ♠ contract?

Is partner happy to hear that I have a ♥ void (K is wasted now; or no problem because one knows that there are 2 entries to clear the ♠s)? How does p like the 2 small ♠s? Just hoping I have AK or AQ with the finesse on? Is nobody scared about the ♦s and a ♦ lead?

Do I think too much? LOL

[helene_t]

In the first sequence, p shows something like 6 LT and you have 5.5. In the second, p shows 4 LT and you have 7.5. Both add up to 12.5 tricks so you may just bid 6 straight away.

[hotShot]

1) You don't have to bid slam with this hand, but there are a few indicators that your side can make a lot tricks. Your partner bid 3♣, so he does not have 4♦ (he could show that with dbl). He won't have 4♠ (some would bid 2♠ even with 3 cards), and he is not balanced with ♥ stopper (did not bid 2NT). He bid 3♣ without knowng more about your hand that 6+HCP and 4♠s, so he won't hold minimum strength.

The worst hand he could have 2335. In that case your side has a 9 card ♣ fit and additionally a 8 card ♠ fit. This means that your opps do have a doublefit in the red suits. Your partner has at least opening strength and you hold 11 HCP. Your opps just bid 4♥ holding at most 17 HCP. They must have some distributional strength to do that, so your side must have some distributional strength as well.

So it is more likely that your partner hold 6♣, and has some sort of shortage.

You know there are no ♥ looser, and partner will hold most of his strengeth in ♣, ♦ or ♠. If he holds ♠K, he can drop his ♦ on your ♠ (remember you hold first round control in ♦). If he holds ♦ values, he might be short in ♠ and can play a ♠ ♥ crossruff to develope your ♠.

If after your 4♠ or 5♣ bid opps bid 5♥, you should rethink what they are defending against. With both sides vul., they should get 9 tricks to be better than your game, or they have reason to belive that your side can make 6♣.

[cherdano]

I dont understand why people talk about reverses and Lebensohl in auction 2. 2S is a jump-shift in my book, and 100% game forcing.

 

Arend

[hatchett]

I dont understand why people talk about reverses and Lebensohl in auction 2. 2S is a jump-shift in my book, and 100% game forcing.

 

I agree and get a new partner if his shape is 2335 on the other hand as has also been suggested

3♣ shows at least 6

[cherdano]

1. Yes you have a huge hand, I would bid 5H. If partner guesses right that this is a void, he has an easy 6♣ call.

When I wrote this, I had misread the auction, I thought 3C was a jump :o

 

I don't think it is so clear what to do here, as some might bid 3C competitively even with a minimum (and a good suit). Still we have 3 first round controls and excellent support. On the upside, opponents will often lead hearts on this auction, which gives partner a tempo to develop spade tricks. I still bid 5H.

 

1) Opps won't bid 5♥ cause I bid them myself !

Is it clear that we want to play in ♣? Do you give up a possible ♠ contract?

Is partner happy to hear that I have a ♥ void (K is wasted now; or no problem because one knows that there are 2 entries to clear the ♠s)? How does p like the 2 small ♠s? Just hoping I have AK or AQ with the finesse on? Is nobody scared about the ♦s and a ♦ lead?

Do I think too much? LOL

Wow, you have a 10-card fit, opps have preempted you, you don't know the right level, and you worry about finding a better strain? You are ambitious, Caren :)

 

No partner won't be happy about 5H, he will bid 6C passed out, and that seems like the contract to be in.

 

Arend

[joker_gib]

1) Opps won't bid 5♥ cause I bid them myself !

Is it clear that we want to play in ♣? Do you give up a possible ♠ contract?

Is partner happy to hear that I have a ♥ void (K is wasted now; or no problem because one knows that there are 2 entries to clear the ♠s)? How does p like the 2 small ♠s? Just hoping I have AK or AQ with the finesse on? Is nobody scared about the ♦s and a ♦ lead?

Do I think too much? LOL

IMHO, 5♥ suggest a very good hand and likely place to play in ♠. It has the advantage of leaving the room to partner to say 5♠

 

Alain

[whereagles]

1st one is worth a shot at 6♣. At worst it should depend on the spade finesse.

 

2nd just bid a forcing 3♣. That should be all the encouragement pard needs to drive to slam.

[hotShot]

Is it clear that we want to play in ♣? Do you give up a possible ♠ contract?

 

Is partner happy to hear that I have a ♥ void (K is wasted now; or no problem because one knows that there are 2 entries to clear the ♠s)?

 

How does p like the 2 small ♠s? Just hoping I have AK or AQ with the finesse on? Is nobody scared about the ♦s and a ♦ lead?

 

Do I think too much? LOL

1) No mattter if you play ♠ or ♣ you hold enough trump, but playing ♠ your partner might be to short in ♠ to ruff. If he's not void, opps could lead trump and follow up trump when they can. So the ♣ game/slam is saver than a ♠ slam.

 

Your partner will be happy to hear about your ♥ void and the additional strength you show. Of cause he would like to have a different K and go for 7.

 

You are right, to make this slam, you still need the ♠ finess. If we assume that the 2♥ bid requieres more strength than the 4♥ bid. This finess will not be working most of the time.

This is why is said you don't have to bid slam here.

[42]

Wow, you have a 10-card fit, opps have preempted you, you don't know the right level, and you worry about finding a better strain? You are ambitious, Caren :)

Too many mathematicians around :) One of my bosses is "The Optimiser"... It rubs off on me, I fear, perhaps not always in the right way :o

[Free]

1. 6♣ and be afraid of missing grand

2. 3♣, wtp? 2NT would mean signoff somewhere, so 3♣ is GF and a clear slamtry. You have space enough, just wondering if you can find grand... It should be piece of cake :o

[P_Marlowe]

I dont understand why people talk about reverses and Lebensohl in auction 2. 2S is a jump-shift in my book, and 100% game forcing.

 

Arend

After having read your comment, I looked at

the auction, ... I have to agree.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

On the first hand you are worth slam. I would also bid 5H in case there is a grand on (partner can cue-bid 5S with the King).

 

3C showed something in the way of extra values, even if not a huge amount (and particularly if not playing good/bad). Think how little you need to make a slam opposite:

 

xx

xx

xxx

AKxxxx

 

gives slam play (spade finesse and trumps 2-1), and partner should have some more HCP, and they might not lead diamonds.

 

On the second hand, partner's 2S bid was absolutely game forcing. Just bid 3C and see what develops (what should develop is a load of cue-bidding).

[han]

Is this the right room for an argument?

 

 

On hand 1 the only question is whether you will play 6C or 7C. You have great support, a good side suit and first round controls in all outside suits. I think 5♥ is right, but a pessimistic 6♣ isn't awful. It is hard to bid grand slams in such cramped auctions.

 

After 5♥ I'd bid 5NT if partner bids 5♠, hopefully partner bids 7♣ with the right cards (spade king and club A-K).

 

On hand 2 I play that 3C is natural and shows some extra values. However, it seems better to let partner in on the secret and bid 4C. We know we have slam interest, so let's tell partner.

[inquiry]

First one, bid what you think you can make 6♣. Your spades are not strong enough to go grand slamming in this competitive auction. Pay the piper if partner has SKx and solid clubs.

 

On board 2, I play lebehnshol over reverses so 3♣ is forcing, but then if partner where to bid 3D woud that be cue-bid or looking for 3NT if I had a heart stopper. Here you have clear, slam interest, so bid 4♣ to set trumps, express slam interest, and start cue-bidding. Now a 4♦ cue-bid is just what the doctor ordered. Note: if for some reason you play 4♣ here as RKCB or the like, then DONT JUMP to 4♣, choose instead the forcing 3♣. And if 3♣ isn't forcing and 4♣ is RKBC? Bid 3♥ then change your methods as soon as this hand is over.

[jdonn]

1) I would bid 5H also, though I admit it doesn't seem likely to lead anywhere. But if partner has K - - AKQ with a little heart length, he will probably ask himself what I could have. In any case it's not even close, this is easily worth a slam bid. If you don't think so, your 3♣ bids are pretty sick.

 

2) I'm not saying slam couldn't be reached after 3♣, but that bid is a mistake in my opinion. Why not bid 4[C], which shows good trumps and immediately gets you into a slam auction. Then 4[D], 4[H], and you are easily there.

[whereagles]

2) (...) Why not bid 4♣, which shows good trumps and immediately gets you into a slam auction.

Because you don't know yet what pard's intentions are. For all you know, he might prefer to try and play 3NT. To bid 4♣ here requires either a very distributional hand or a very, very slam-bound hand. The actual hand is strong & slam-bound but not that much.

[jdonn]

2) (...) Why not bid 4♣, which shows good trumps and immediately gets you into a slam auction.

Because you don't know yet what pard's intentions are. For all you know, he might prefer to try and play 3NT. To bid 4♣ here requires either a very distributional hand or a very, very slam-bound hand. The actual hand is strong & slam-bound but not that much.

Who cares what his intentions are, I know what mine are. 3♣ could be bid on xxx, and showing good trumps is the key to many good slam auctions. If you bid 3♣ he will probably bid 4♣, you will bid 4♥, and he won't have a clue if you have a hand this suitable or if you are just cooperating on a worse hand with worse clubs. And you don't have a clue if he has diamond control. If he bids 4♠ do you just sign off with no diamond control yourself? But how would you bid Kx Axxxx xxx JTx, which could easily be all he needs for slam on some other hand? So many questions, so much ambiguity, all of which could have been eliminated by clearly showing good trumps and setting the suit in a strong way early in the auction.

[han]

I don't like this "intentions" thinking. Partner's 2S shows a very strong hand and good clubs. As partner has no clue what we have, how could partner be intending something? Talking about intentions sounds like you expect partner to be masterminding already.

 

2S is a descriptive bid, and so is 4C. 3C is not.

[mike777]

3c, understand 4c as some picture bid of good trumps but we have got plenty of room lets go slow and let partner take control. I assume 4D by either partner, anytime, will be rkc for clubs. After 4d and 5d (specific kings, grand slam try) we will be fine.