Negative doubles, continuations

[y66]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sak5haqt9dt4ckq73&w=sjt432h865d97cj65&e=sq6h74dkqj532ct98&s=s987hkj32da86ca42]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

You're North, playing with your favorite partner.

 

Have you two encountered hands like this one before, in practice or play? Never? Once or twice? Many times?

 

Have you discussed the types of problems that can come up on hands like this one? Yes, at least once? Yes, several times? No, we haven't worked on this?

 

Say the bidding goes 1C - 2D - DBL* - P; ?

 

* Negative double

 

Where do think this hand might go? How will you get there? Is this an easy problem in your partnership?

 

Okay. Me first.

 

My partner and I are novice/intermediate level players. We play 2/1GF and negative doubles thru 3S. We've played about 30 sessions together, once a week or so for the last 7 months. I don't recall seeing a hand like this one before. We've both read about negative doubles, but we've never really discussed them, not continuations anyway. I think his double is showing one or both majors (usually 4 cards) and 8+ HCP. I have a very good, balanced hand. So, we're playing in game or more in hearts, spades, clubs or notrump. But which game? This is a tough hand for us. I can force to game with 3D, but after that, we don't have any way (any specific agreements) to help us find 3NT or 5C if, say, he has 4 spades and either a diamond stopper or 4 clubs. Even if he bids 3H, which I'm praying for, I won't know how good his hand is. I will put us in 4H and leave it to him to work out how good my hand is and whether or not to go further. If he bids 3S, I have no idea what I'll do next.

 

We didn't play this hand. I saw it in the hand records from a HomeBaseClub tournament.

 

I'm looking forward to discussing this with partner. If it comes up at the table, maybe we'll know what to do.

 

We will discuss any suggestions posted here.

[whereagles]

You don't enough bids if opps preempt, let alone if they butt-in.

 

Anyway, 3♦ on North's hand seems fair. In this case it works well because South bids 3♥ and you're on to the best game. If South were to bid 3♠, North would be kinda endplayed into bidding 3NT. That may not work well, but you can't have everything :)

[Codo]

My bidding will start with

1 ♣ (2♦) x (pass)

3 ♥ pass 4

x is the only way to get the Hearts in the game. If pd respondes some Spade, you can still bid NT. This bid is far from perfect, but the least evil.

 

3 ♥ shows 4 Hearts and 15-18 HCPs

 

Souths hand has extras and may try for slam, but I would give up with 4 ♥ and make it +2.

 

But Slam is no good goal here. You need trumps 3-2 and clubs 3-3, which is quite unlikely after the bidding.

[mikeh]

This is a tough combination, but you will run into similar layouts every now and then if you keep playing. And as the level of competition increases, you will encounter more aggressive bidding, especially when you are red and the opps white.

 

As for your issues: the negative double usually promises both majors or one major and support for opener's suit... so that if opener jumps into a major not actually held, responder can pull to opener's minor (as a natural bid).

 

The S hand is an 'in between': I am sure that close to 100% of good players would double simply because it is the least distortion. That comment is widely applicable: textbooks always show hands that match the suggested auction, but in the real world, you will often encounter hands that do not fit any bid perfectly. You then have to choose which distortion to tell. It is usually best to consider two factors: you'd like to make the bid that is the least distorted and you'd like to make a cheap, non-space-consuming bid to maximize the bidding space for the partnership to get together.

 

So S doubles, which combines both goals: it is a cheap bid (compare it to 2N or 3N) and it is 'close'... if you were 4=4 it would be perfect.

 

N has a choice of 4♥ or 3♦. 3♥ would be not quite enough here, although the hand is fairly 'soft' as far as 18 counts go.

 

As it happens, N cannot go wrong.

 

But if S bids 3♠ over 3♦, N should NOT bid 3N.

 

One of the hand types that S may have is a long ♠ suit and insufficient values to bid 2♠. In other posts, it is apparent that the meaning of 2♠ over 2♦ depends on partnership agreement. Ignoring negative free bids (and my advice os to ignore them at least until you are very proficient with the current system, and personally I dislike them except at mps), the question is one of strength. In my partnerships, 2♠ is either gf (in most) or close to gf (in the others) but many pairs play 2♠ could be a decent 10 count with 5+♠. Whichever you play, there may be hands just beneath that strength where you do not want to pass. Most would then double and 'correct' partner's response to the cheapest number of ♠...

 

So when S bids 3♠, he denies 4♥ and there is a good chance that he holds 5+♠.

 

In those circumstances, bidding 3N is silly: the correct bid is 4♠.

 

In fact, even if you disagree with my statements as to the chances of S holding 5+

♠, you should still raise ♠: there is nothing wrong with playing a 4-3 when the short hand is the one taking the ruffs in ♦.

 

3N is a bid that could be justified only by looking at the hands

[whereagles]

I guess you're also saying South should bid 4♦ over North's 3♦ if he's 44 majors.. no?

 

Edit: actually, thinking of it better, it kinda looks like your reasoning is substituting one simple solution, which is bid 3NT regardless of stoppers and hope for the best, for a more complicated one, namely guess that 4♠ will play better than 3NT. What if, for instance, responder bids 3♠ on 4 weakish spades?

 

Still, the reasoning that South's 3♠ is most of the times done on 5 cards has one slight problem: what is he to do if he has 4 spades and no diamond stop?

[stuartmn]

After a 1d overcall of 1c the experts say that double shows 4 cards in both majors which I recommend but can't always get my partners to do it (they keep doubling with 4-3 in the majors which is bad (say all the experts).However if the overcall is at the 2 level like your 1c-2d then the experts think you havent enough room to insist on both majors and many freely play it as showing at least one major (even 4-2 is ok.This is what needs discusion -If after 1c-2d-D-p-2s , reponder must confirm by raising and if he makes a non forcing bid he does not have spades.

 

In your auction I play a cue bid by south of 3d shows a limit raise in clubs (admitedly interested in nt but tending to deny a 4 card major or else showing a gameforce hand which you don't quite have .You could bid 2nt to show a stopper in diamonds and a 10-12 hcp hand in which case opener may pass but if he accepts the invitation he must show heart suit by bidding 3hts .THis is what you must discuss,you might want to have 3hts showing a stopper and worrying about spades. If thats the case then you want responder to make a negative double with a 4 card major and have 2n tend to deny a 4 card major. Regards Stuart

[Codo]

Hi Stuart,

 

you must be very lucky to know, what "all experts" play. I don`t know them all, but I could not believe, that there is one single bid in bridge, where all experts will agree.

Well maybe opening AKQJ, AKQJ, AKQJ,A as 7 NT.

 

I am pretty sure, that in french standard, even for their experts, they use X for showing 4-3 major hands.

Advantage: Your get both major in the picture and your suit bids more often show a 5 card length- (but not always, at least not from anybody).

 

Disadvantage: Pd may jump/bid around to your 4-3 Fit. Espacially in comptetion.

 

But this disadvantage is much easier to solve then your try to create a gf in clubs and later find your major fit.

 

F.E. in the given hand, but with South having one more spade instead of a heart,

he will rebid 3 NT after 3 ♥ from pd and play there.