Disallow UNDOs option for MBC?

[DrTodd13]

I'd like an option to prohibit the use of UNDOs at tables in the MBC.

 

-- Todd

[Elianna]

I'd like an option to prohibit the use of UNDOs at tables in the MBC.

 

-- Todd

There is an option: don't accept the undo.

 

Just tell new people coming to the table that you will not accept any undo, and then don't accept any.

 

I know that I wouldn't stand for this rule, but at least I'd like to know ahead of time.

[amfnz]

Inadvertent bids under the law are allowed to be retracted. How can this law be applied if you take away the ability to UNDO?

[csdenmark]

Inadvertent bids under the law are allowed to be retracted. How can this law be applied if you take away the ability to UNDO?

The laws you refer to are not those to apply on BBO. BBO have own rules for UNDO. According to those you can ask for undo if misclick - else not.

 

It is wrong to put up suggestions for the software about UNDO. The right way is to ask Fred to modify the rules for UNDO on BBO.

[DrTodd13]

If the tournament organizer can prohibit UNDOs then why can't table hosts? What is the difference? I can argue that you need to prohibit UNDOs more in the MBC because there is no director to help determine whether an UNDO was from a true misclick or a slip of the mind. The laws of bridge also say that you should call director when an irregularity occurs but there is no such thing available in the MBC. I believe that 75+% of UNDOs are because somebody realized they just did something stupid. UNDOs are so readily granted that people get lazy and this just makes the situation worse. If they know UNDOs are not granted at the table then they will be more careful.

[csdenmark]

I agree with you Todd about the normal reasons and the frequency. No problem with that. The rules for BBO have been written before tournaments were part of the platform.

 

I think tournaments organizers can restrict because they have been granted the right to predict that misclicks don't exist. I think their right to do so is not in accordance with the intensions about the feature.

 

Please remember - you can only ask for undo if you have a technical problem(misclick). Any kind of blunders or misjudgement are NO legal reason. I think the right word will be cheating.

[nickf]

I believe that 75+% of UNDOs are because somebody realized they just did something stupid.

I had a beauty the other day. RHO doubled my partner's two level opening pre-empt, I had a fistful of pd's suit and a good enough read on my LHO that he was a chance to pass the double.

 

Sure enough he passed and when I tracked dummy with enough to make a few doubled overtricks righty asked for an undo.

 

Bzzzz.

 

nickf

sydney

[the saint]

We have all suffered dyslexic mouse finger from time-to-time. However, genuine undos are requested immediately, because the person can see on screen that what they intended to do is not what has just appeared on the screen. That seems an easy way to tell to me.

[sceptic]

I see some people don''t mind undoing bids but refuse to undo cards played.

 

This seems a bit daft to me, I honestly think that if there were no undos at all and people had to play out their mistakes.

 

People may just start paying attention to what they are doing and not answering the phone or playing at work or chatting to their friends whilst playing etc etc etc as I think this is more a reason for misclicks that any mechanical slip or fat fingered problem

 

BAN undos totally.... at MBC or at least give Dr Todd his request (which is in the right place) and let us decide if undos are allowed as we set the table

 

There is an option: don't accept the undo.

 

This is not a good way to handle the issue IMHO, as if the table is set for no undos people don't have to join, if they are allowable refusing causes bad feeling and another table hopper is born (which is starting to become quite problematic on occasions, but thats for another thread)

[csdenmark]

I see some people don''t mind undoing bids but refuse to undo cards played.

 

This seems a bit daft to me, I honestly think that if there were no undos at all and people had to play out their mistakes.

 

People may just start paying attention to what they are doing and not answering the phone or playing at work or chatting to their friends whilst playing etc etc etc as I think this is more a reason for misclicks that any mechanical slip or fat fingered problem

 

BAN undos totally.... at MBC or at least give Dr Todd his request (which is in the right place) and let us decide if undos are allowed as we set the table

 

There is an option: don't accept the undo.

 

This is not a good way to handle the issue IMHO, as if the table is set for no undos people don't have to join, if they are allowable refusing causes bad feeling and another table hopper is born (which is starting to become quite problematic on occasions, but thats for another thread)

BAN undos totally.... at MBC or at least give Dr Todd his request (which is in the right place) and let us decide if undos are allowed as we set the table

I tend to agree. But the right way is not to undermine the rules further. The right way is therefore not to ask for modification of software but to ask for modification of rules.

[fred]

In my opinion, there are times in which UNDOs should obviously be accepted.

 

An extreme example: if the opponents are heading towards a slam in hearts and one of the players jumps to 6S at some point and immediately claims a misclick, to not let him UNDO and change his call to 6H (which is obviously what he meant to bid) is absurd.

 

Similarly if the dummy has AQJ10 of a suit and the opening lead is the King of that suit and declarer plays the Queen while claiming a misclick, you should believe him and let him play the Ace.

 

To me this has nothing to do with the rules. It is a question of "do you really want to win that way?". Refusing an UNDO in a situation like this is an example of poor sportsmanship in my opinion.

 

For this reason I would not want to play at a "no UNDOs" table. UNDOs are not the problem - it is the way some people are using them that is the problem.

 

In a perfect world people would only ask for UNDOs only under appropriate circumstances. Clearly there are people out there who are not doing that. Educating them about the proper use of UNDOs would eliminate the need for "no UNDOs" tables.

 

Given that this may take a while (or never happen), I guess it can't hurt to include an option for "no UNDOs". People don't have to play at these tables if they don't want to.

 

No guarantees as to if and when this option will be added, but I will discuss with Uday.

 

In the mean time, I suggest you put "no UNDOs" or similar on the table description.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

Please remember - you can only ask for undo if you have a technical problem(misclick). Any kind of blunders or misjudgement are NO legal reason. I think the right word will be cheating.

I think that would be the wrong word.

 

Surely there are at least some people who do not know that some of their UNDO requests are inappropriate. These people are not cheating. They are simply ignorant of the rules.

 

In a previous thread you used the word "cheating" to describe players who did not have a proper convention card. I am not sure if you realize this, but your statement about convention cards was an accusation that almost all of our members are cheats.

 

I think you should try to be more careful with your use of this word.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[barmar]

If the tournament organizer can prohibit UNDOs then why can't table hosts? What is the difference?

Most players consider tournaments to be more "serious" and "formal" than the MBC. MBC is viewed as social games, like kitchen-table bridge. And in social bridge the players fend for themselves when applying the laws, rather than depending on authorities like an SO or TD to set and apply rigid procedures.

[joshs]

I was playing on OK bridge with a friend a few months ago, and he, like Todd, hates undo requests, so he set up a table with no undos. A little bit into the set, soneone misclicked and asked for an undo, as the option was unavailable at the table, I had to demand that we skip the board do to UI, and to demand that my friend never set up a table with no undo's again, since the whole mess took us 5 minutes to sort out.

 

Just as I am sometimes a klutz and pull out 1S when I meant 1H using a bidding box, and immediately correct it, I think it makes the game totally random to force players not be able to correct those when playing over the computer. My most frequent error playing computer bridge is I alert and explain my bid (typing an explanation) and accidently hit pass. You really want to be able to have undo's there. I do not like random scores sprinkled about...

[A2003]

Just a thought.

May be two stages are needed.

First click is to play the card and second click is to accept the card.

Same way for bidding.

First click is to make the bid and the second click is to accept the bid.

or else

May be accept button.

[barmar]

Some online bridge programs have that as an option, but I suspect most players don't use it. For instance, on OKbridge you can click on a bid then click OK, or double-click on the bid; and when playing you can click and drag a card or just double-click on the card. I'll bet 90% of players double-click.

 

After a while it becomes too cumbersome to have to go through two steps for every little thing. If the program forced this on players, I suspect many would abandon that site for systems with "better" interfaces.

[Elianna]

Just a thought.

May be two stages are needed.

First click is to play the card and second click is to accept the card.

Same way for bidding.

First click is to make the bid and the second click is to accept the bid.

or else

May be accept button.

I think that won't happen. Mainly because everytime i've suggested it, people protest, leading me to think that it won't be very popular. :P

 

I see that barmar agrees with me.

[Abadaba]

In my opinion, there are times in which UNDOs should obviously be accepted.

 

An extreme example: if the opponents are heading towards a slam in hearts and one of the players jumps to 6S at some point and immediately claims a misclick, to not let him UNDO and change his call to 6H (which is obviously what he meant to bid) is absurd.

 

Similarly if the dummy has AQJ10 of a suit and the opening lead is the King of that suit and declarer plays the Queen while claiming a misclick, you should believe him and let him play the Ace.

 

To me this has nothing to do with the rules. It is a question of "do you really want to win that way?". Refusing an UNDO in a situation like this is an example of poor sportsmanship in my opinion.

 

For this reason I would not want to play at a "no UNDOs" table. UNDOs are not the problem - it is the way some people are using them that is the problem.

 

In a perfect world people would only ask for UNDOs only under appropriate circumstances. Clearly there are people out there who are not doing that. Educating them about the proper use of UNDOs would eliminate the need for "no UNDOs" tables.

 

Given that this may take a while (or never happen), I guess it can't hurt to include an option for "no UNDOs". People don't have to play at these tables if they don't want to.

 

No guarantees as to if and when this option will be added, but I will discuss with Uday.

 

In the mean time, I suggest you put "no UNDOs" or similar on the table description.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I don't use the Forum oftenandthis might be the wrong place for this but reading Fred's reply - I wonderif folks could help me with a dilemna.

 

Recently there were several wonderful sessions hosted by Luisbrasil for BBO TD's. The one point that made sense atthe time from his explanation was his theory that there be NO UNDO's allowed in tourneys. I decided to make this the option for ABALUCY with a little trepidation, but his theory seemed worthwhile.

 

Frankly, I do agree with Fred completely. So now this is a quandry.

 

It would be nice to hear what others think and also maybe this solution could work.

 

For tourneys how about Host having an option to allow all Undo's, bidding Undo's, and/or Play Undos. Then perhaps evenif Undos were disallowed a good Td might have the discretion to override the undo.

 

Is this possible? Advisable? Useful? (just plain dumb) :)

 

ABA

[barmar]

That's how it works on OKbridge. Players can never undo in tourneys, but during the bidding they can use chat to tell the other players to stop because they misclicked, and then call the TD. He can ask whether the player called "STOP" right away (the proverbial "without pause for thought"), and if so he can undo the bidding.

 

I don't think they ever allow undoes during the play -- there's no mechanism for penalty cards.

[hrothgar]

In my opinion, there are times in which UNDOs should obviously be accepted.

 

An extreme example: if the opponents are heading towards a slam in hearts and one of the players jumps to 6S at some point and immediately claims a misclick, to not let him UNDO and change his call to 6H (which is obviously what he meant to bid) is absurd.

 

Similarly if the dummy has AQJ10 of a suit and the opening lead is the King of that suit and declarer plays the Queen while claiming a misclick, you should believe him and let him play the Ace.

 

To me this has nothing to do with the rules. It is a question of "do you really want to win that way?". Refusing an UNDO in a situation like this is an example of poor sportsmanship in my opinion.

 

For this reason I would not want to play at a "no UNDOs" table. UNDOs are not the problem - it is the way some people are using them that is the problem.

 

In a perfect world people would only ask for UNDOs only under appropriate circumstances. Clearly there are people out there who are not doing that. Educating them about the proper use of UNDOs would eliminate the need for "no UNDOs" tables.

 

Given that this may take a while (or never happen), I guess it can't hurt to include an option for "no UNDOs". People don't have to play at these tables if they don't want to.

 

No guarantees as to if and when this option will be added, but I will discuss with Uday.

 

In the mean time, I suggest you put "no UNDOs" or similar on the table description.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I don't use the Forum oftenandthis might be the wrong place for this but reading Fred's reply - I wonderif folks could help me with a dilemna.

 

Recently there were several wonderful sessions hosted by Luisbrasil for BBO TD's. The one point that made sense atthe time from his explanation was his theory that there be NO UNDO's allowed in tourneys. I decided to make this the option for ABALUCY with a little trepidation, but his theory seemed worthwhile.

 

Frankly, I do agree with Fred completely. So now this is a quandry.

 

It would be nice to hear what others think and also maybe this solution could work.

 

For tourneys how about Host having an option to allow all Undo's, bidding Undo's, and/or Play Undos. Then perhaps evenif Undos were disallowed a good Td might have the discretion to override the undo.

 

Is this possible? Advisable? Useful? (just plain dumb) :)

 

ABA

I just looked over the notes from the sessions that LucaBrasil hosted.

 

It doesn't look like LucaBrasil was advocating running tournaments with undos disabled. He notes that it is EASIEST to disable undos, however, I don't think that he was recommending it.

 

Undo's are a very controversial issue, regardless of venue.

Just look back at the infamous "Oh *****" from 6 years ago...

[Abadaba]

Amazing !!! I knowof at least 3 TD's who came away with the same impression - Guess Multitasking is not a good idea. Thanks Rothgar - Undo here we go !!

[DrTodd13]

How about this idea. If UNDOs are allowed then you only allow a deviation of 1. By this I mean that whatever bid or card you try to substitute has to be only one away from the bid or card that you originally played. So many times someone will, e.g., withdrawal a ♥ and then play a ♦ that you know came from a completely different part of the hand. If the distance is more than 1 then it is a pretty good clue they changed their mind rather than truly misclicked. Same thing goes for bidding, you can replace 1♦ with 1♥ but not with 1♠. Maybe you also allow 2♦ instead of 1♦.

[luke warm]

the other day my rho bid 1 something, i passed, and lho bid 3 somethings (after having dealt and passed).. pard passed, rho tanked and typed 'thinking'... at this point lho asked for undo... we allowed it (why the hell not? heheh) and he changed the bid to 1 something... i forget what rho did, but it wasn't right (ie, didn't work out for them)

[temp3600]

How about this idea.  If UNDOs are allowed then you only allow a deviation of 1.  By this I mean that whatever bid or card you try to substitute has to be only one away from the bid or card that you originally played.  So many times someone will, e.g., withdrawal a ♥ and then play a ♦ that you know came from a completely different part of the hand.  If the distance is more than 1 then it is a pretty good clue they changed their mind rather than truly misclicked.  Same thing goes for bidding, you can replace 1♦ with 1♥ but not with 1♠.  Maybe you also allow 2♦ instead of 1♦.

It is obviously possible to implement an automatic detection of 'illegitimate' undo requests, and the more time invested in the design of this system, the more accurate the detection will be.

 

But is that really necessary, or even desirable ?

[jillybean]

One ah-ha moment for me during the fabulous TD lectures was understanding the difference between a genuine misclick and inattention.

 

I’m sure I have in perfectly good faith, asked for undo’s based on inattention – I’m last to play to the trick, my RHO plays the J and I play the x, oops that should have been K, I request an undo. Inattention is not reason to ask for an undo.

 

Would it be correct to say the vast majority of misclicks are due to inattention rather than a mechanical fault?

 

jb