18-20 Balanced

[bridgeboy]

Hi all,

 

Suppose you play 2/1 based with a strong NT (15-17)

 

after opening 1m with 18-20 bal, how do you rebid after

 

(i)1D - 2C (by p)

 

(ii) inverted minor raise (1m-2m)

 

would like to hear about the pros and cons of the approaches you use...

 

thanks a lot !

[JohnnyH7]

I think the most common approach for a hand between a 1N and 2N opener is to rebid 2N, and then later bid 4N after a 2/1 (quantitative). A good thing to discuss with partner is what does a 3N bid show over 2C. I prefer not to have this show any 18-19, it eats up too much room and the 4 level is usually safe anyways. I typically play it as 4441 with 15-17.

 

As for inverted minors it depends on your whole scheme. "Standard" inverted minors are woefully inadequate with 2N being passable, in that case you have to improvise with some stopper showing bid and hope for the best.

[kenrexford]

OBJECTION!!!

 

The premise is flawed, to begin with, in my personal approach. To have an inverted minor raise or a 2/1 GF, the opening must be in first or second seat. In those seats, 2NT would show 19+ to 21 balanced. Thus, the range is actually 17+ to 19-.

 

However, what to do???

 

My approach is to have 2C over a minor as an artificial game-force, possible with fit and possibly without. Opener then uses "transfers" for all hand types. With a four-card major (and balanced), opener bids one-under the suit; acceptance of the "transfer" establishes a fit an initiates cuebidding. With no four-card major, Opener can either "transfer" to the other minor (4-4 or better) or "transfer" to his own minor (5+), or bid 2NT. The rest is complicated, but this approach works wonders.

[Al_U_Card]

The 2C bid guarantees 5? (not Jxx Jxx xxx AKQx)?

 

I don't play the 2C as forcing to game in a minor. So the auction can stop in 3 of a minor unless the 2C bidder reverses or jumps.

 

The rebids over 2C are as for inverted minor raises (easier on the memory banks) whatever you use is good. So for me, the 2NT would show minimum balanced (12-14) with major stops, 3NT would be unbalanced with major stops (15-17) and 4NT would show 18-19 with major stops and ask for aces (or keys for C since the club fit is presumed after 4NT but not 3NT)

 

As i said, the inv.minor raises are the same but forcing minor raises (J/S) are also available.

[hrothgar]

OBJECTION!!!

 

The premise is flawed, to begin with, in my personal approach. See, I play Go, and not Bridge and the game involves placing little black and white pebbles on a board and we don't have any bidding.

 

Seriously, Ken, your answer is almost completely non-responsive. Your cute little 2♣ toy is irrelevant because other people aren't using these methods. I don't really care if the range is 17+ to 19- because it doesn't change the fundamental issue being discussed.

 

In any case, there are two different issues that you need to consider:

 

The first is the definition of a 2M rebid following a GF 1♦ - 2♣. Some players use these bids to show stoppers rather than shape, so NT oriented hands don't necessarily bid NT. This is an important issue to discuss in a serious partnership.

 

The second issue is whether you are multiplexing multiple ranges into a NT type responses. As noted earlier, many pairs use a 2NT response to show either 12-14 or 18-20 (ranges are approximate)

[luis]

i)1D - 2C (by p)

 

Here I strongly recommend you to play 1D - 2C as game-forcing following the 2/1 spirit. Then rebids are more natural and easier to make, Kokish rebids are particularly useful:

2di = 5+ diamonds any

2he/2sp = exactly 4 diamonds and 4 in the major, balanced

2nt = balanced hand without 5 diamonds or 4 in a major

3c = 4 card raise

 

If 2c is not game forcing I think you will be forced to bid 3NT with 18-19 balanced.

 

Luis

[pclayton]

You mentioned 18-20. Are you playing a 21-22 pt 2N opening? I haven't seen these since the 80's, and I've only seen them with a 16-18 1N opening.

 

Playing inverted minors it is useful to play 2N as forcing after 1m - 2m. The only sensible exception would be playing limited openings. A subsequent 4N call a la 2/1 could show the 18-19 hand.

 

I don't think 1D - 2C with an 18-19 point hand creates any more issues than 1M - 2x with a random 5332 and an 18-19 point hand.

 

Side Note #1: Serious partnerships should either play Extended Wolff or Transfers after 1x - 1y - 2N. NMF just doesn't get the job done.

 

Side note#2: I don't care for a 19-21 2N range. I will upgrade maybe 20% of 19 counts, but to try to have a 3 point range for 2N isn't a good idea IMO.

[Kalvan14]

Playing 2/1, 1♦-2♣ is GF.

Opener rebids 2♦ with 5 cards, or 2M with 4 cards (diamonds can theoretically be 3 cards). 2N denies either 5♦ or 4 in M. The opener's strength is still uncertain, but the auction is already committed to game.

3♣ would show 4 cards support and a maximum hand. It would be a bit strange, since with 4-4 in the minors and 18 HCP opener would start with 1♣.

 

Note: if 2♣ is not GF, the situation is a bit more mixed. Still 2M is forcing, and 3♣ is forcing too. 2N would not be possible, since it might be passed out: with 18-19 and 3-3-4-3, the only rebid is 3N.

 

After an IMR, 2N is not forcing. Re-bid 2M (or even 2♦, if the opening was in clubs). In principle these show stoppers for NT, but cater also for stronger hands.

There is always the possibility of rebidding 3N, but this would show a 3-3-3-4, IMO.

[Free]

yes, 2♣ is GF, so 2NT is easy enough.

 

However, if you make the exception of 1♦-2♣ being not GF, then you might try following:

2♦ = minimum, balanced OR ♦ (still 3+♦)

2NT = maximum balanced (18-20 in this case)

[Gerben42]

After 1♦ - 2♣ (NOT game forcing since I want 3♣ to be a mixed ♦-raise), I bid:

 

* 2♦ with a minimum hand, balanced or not

* 2NT with a balanced 18+ hand or some semibalanced types, 15+ and stoppers

* 3NT with a maximum 12 - 14 NT hand and stoppers.

 

After 1♦ 2♦:

* 3♦ with a minimum hand, balanced or not

* 2NT with a balanced 18+ hand or some semibalanced types, 15+ and stoppers

* 3NT with a maximum 12 - 14 NT hand and stoppers.

 

In the newest Fantunes version I've switched to a 2NT opener 21 - 22 , lower ranges are 12 - 14 (open 1NT), 15 - 17 (make up a major after 1♦), and 18 - 20 (1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT)

[Gillian]

Playing 2/1 and inverted minor raises my system is the following .

 

1/ Inverted Minors : 1m - 2m is forcing up to 3m, so that 2NT is forcing.

 

1♣(♦) - 2♣(♦)

2NT : Mini - maxi (aka 12-14 or 18-19) with stoppers in all suits. With the upper version i'll rebid usually 4NT next round (or any action showing extra force over partner's bid)

 

2/ 1♦ - 2♣

This one is trickier as i dont play it as game forcing. I still use a forcing mini maxi 2NT showing either 13+ - 14, or 18-19 with stoppers in the majors. The hand can be 4441, and i'll treat the 18-19 as 1/

 

I the need a relay for the 12 - 13- hands that are not forcing to game.

1♦ - 2♣

2♦ : always 5+ diamonds (usually 6+), any strength

2♥ : either 5+♦, 4+♥ 15+points (standard)

or 12-13- balanced or 4441 or weak club support.

-------> a 2♠ relay from partner clarifies the situation

-----------> 2NT 4441 or balance minimum hand (non forcing)

-----------> 3♣ : weak club support, non forcing

-----------> 3♦ --> 3NT various strong (15+) hands with D and H

2♠ : either 5+♦, 4+♠ 15+points (standard)

or 4441 15-17 (not opened 1NT because of the Club sing.)

 

Btw , 3NT show 18-19 4432 exactly.

 

Hope this helps (my first post :P )

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure how I was "non-responsive." The question sought the approach of others in handling this problem. If the 18-20 range is a problem for the inquirer, limiting out half the range (19+-20) is an "approach" to solve half the issue. The remainder has a solution as well, designed to enable slower bidding and, accordingly, better handling. The GF of 2C also enables 2D as a raise to be limit only. Is your problem with my approach that it is "non-responsive" or that you do not like it???

[keylime]

I play Mexican 2♦, showing an 18-19 balanced hand.

[civill]

IMO,blue bidding system is easiest to deal with this type of hands.