Philosophical question

[luis]

The following Philosophical debate emerged at my local club:

 

Bidding:

 

1♦ - pass - 1♠ - pass

2♦ - pass - 2♠

 

Now everybody knows 2♠ is non-forcing (tadah!) but the question is: What does the 1♠ bidder need in terms of values to bid 2♠? Is there a hand that the 1♦ opener can have that will bid over 2♠? Can he?

 

A group here says "2♠ promises nothing, absolute signoff, opener will always pass"

The other group says "Without values responder can pass 2♦ so when he bids 2♠ it's non-forcing but shows values, at least the values to decide not to pass 2♦ so opener with a good hand can cooperate and bid again"

 

Do you join the dark side or the light side and which one is each? :-)

 

[Edited Note after Knx... comment: 1♦ - 2♠ is strong or some gadget WJS not in use]

 

Luis

[kenrexford]

To "solve" this problem, most of the people I partner with have agreed to make an initial jump to 2S show constructive values (8-11). Accordingly, a 2S call here would be limited to a bad 8 and could be very weak.

 

Conversely, if 1D-P-2S could be very weak (a WJS), then 2S inferentially must show values.

 

If an initial jump to 2S is forcing, I have no answer.

[Sigi_BC84]

We have actually specified this in our system, similar to Ken's method: 1♦-2♠ is a weak jump (5-8), so your sequence from above shows 9-11 (i.e. invitational) and a jump to 3♠ would show a game-force.

 

--Sigi

[mikeh]

Methods count, of course. If one plays weak jump shifts, then 2♠ shows a hand worth, at the low end, just over the top range for a wjs.... up to just under an invitational jump. In that style, opener is encouraged to bid again with a good hand and with decent ♠, both measured, as always, in the context of the auction to date. Thus most would require an excellent 15 or more to have jump rebid 3♦. Opener may well hold something like Qxx x AKJxxx Axx and rebid 2♦. That hand is arguably worth 4♠, and I would certainly bid 4♠ if red and if we played wjs.

 

Not playing wjs is more problematic, in that it is arguable that the low end for 2♠ is now weaker than otherwise: especially with a suit with good texture: QJ109xx for example, where the suit rates, in a weak hand, to be worthless in 2♦.

 

But the upper limit for 2♠ remains the same: just beneath an invitational jump. Therefore, opener must, in my view, be permitted to try for game with a maximum support/strength hand for the bidding to date.

[pbleighton]

Without gadgets, 2S shows less than invitational values, ~6-9, with (usually) 6+ cards.

 

That doesn't mean opener can't bid again (unless maybe you are playing a 15+ strong club). With AJx-KQx-AQJxxx-x, you are surely not going to pass.

 

Peter

[mike777]

It does seem that opener needs a 5 LTC hand to bid again. Perhaps some rare 6 LTC hand. Difficult to come up with hands with 2 spades and 6D that opener does not rebid 3D on.

 

I assume the best hand partner could have is:

AKJxxx...xxx...xx..xx or would you rebid 3s with that hand?

[DrTodd13]

Without gadgets, 2S shows less than invitational values, ~6-9, with (usually) 6+ cards.

 

That doesn't mean opener can't bid again (unless maybe you are playing a 15+ strong club). With AJx-KQx-AQJxxx-x, you are surely not going to pass.

 

Peter

If you hold this hand, haven't you already grossly underbid by only bidding 2♦? So, sure, if you grossly underbid then you can correct it later if you get the chance.

 

I'd say that if you would raise with 3 card support and a singleton that it is tough to find a 12-14 pt hand with ♠ doubleton that would want to take some action. Perhaps not impossible but I would imagine such hands are rare.

[awm]

For me the 2♠ rebid is normally something like 5-10. With a good ten I might invite; with less than five I would only bid/rebid spades with extremely good intermediates. This seems like a wide range, but opener is quite limited for the 2♦ call (basically 11-14 with six diamonds and rarely more than two spades).

 

Even if both hands are maximum, you have only something like 23-24 high and at best a 6-2 major fit. Game is not really that likely to make. I think opener should pass unless he for some reason declined to raise with three-card spade support. In this case opener can raise, which is normally quite safe (nine total trumps, plus if responder really has a bad hand opponents would have bid at some point) and quite descriptive (the diamonds must be quite good, since with mediocre diamonds opener would usually raise with three-card spade support).

 

This is really not that different from responding to a weak two bid. I'm sure one could construct hands where I'd look for game opposite a weak two holding 11-14 points and only doubleton in support, but they are few and far between.

[inquiry]

Since is is philosophical time... I like 1any-2S to be weak jump overcall. So that 1d-1S-2d-2S is better than weak jump overcall but not forcing.

 

Give the context of this problem, where 1d-2S is not weak jump overcall. then 2S is a tough decision. Is responder broke with lots of spades? Does he has a smattering of something with long spades (say 8-10 and long spades). If partner can have 4, 5 or 6 hcp and six spades or up to 9/10 with six spades the range is too wide (this is why I play 1any-2S as weak, my other jumps have different meanings, only jump to 2S is weak). But not playing weak jump 2S, the range has to be this wide... so opener is allowed to bid again with a fit and a reason to bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont believe to the school that says,

responder showed some live bidding 2S,

merely he thinks 2S is better than 2D.

 

Opener can make a move with a fit for

responder, i.e. 3 card support, and a single,

(most likely in clubs) and hard values.

 

He can pass or invite with 3S, nothin else.

 

This probably means I joining the gray side,

it would not be the first time I ended up between

two chairs.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

OK I guess that means with:

AKx....xxx...AJxxxx...x you bid 3S.

 

I assume you will not rebid 2D with:

AKx...xxx...AQxxxx..x

 

who knows what will make, I can see 2s or 3s or 4s as making.

[Al_U_Card]

Perhaps partnership agreement supercedes general principles but it seems that undiscussed, a rebid of 2 D can, at worst, be made on (nowadays) 10 hcp and a meagre 6 card suit. Therefore, I would expect a 2S rebid to be "I cant stand to play opposite a good 5 card D suit (void or small stiff) so my 2S bid is just a minimum hand (less than a poor invitation, esp. at imps) with AT LEAST 5 good spades (opposite your hoped for doubleton or small tripleton).

[hatchett]

OK I guess that means with:

AKx....xxx...AJxxxx...x you bid 3S.

 

I assume you will not rebid 2D with:

AKx...xxx...AQxxxx..x

 

I think a 2♦ rebid on the above two hands over 1♠ is horrible. The simple way to avoid missing a ♠ game is to raise 1♠ to 2♠.

[JohnnyH7]

If 1D-1S-2D-2S shows extras playing weak jump shifts how does one bid QJxxxx Qxxxx --- xx?

[mike777]

OK I guess that means with:

AKx....xxx...AJxxxx...x you bid 3S.

 

I assume you will not rebid 2D with:

AKx...xxx...AQxxxx..x

 

I think a 2♦ rebid on the above two hands over 1♠ is horrible. The simple way to avoid missing a ♠ game is to raise 1♠ to 2♠.

I did not say I agree just pointing out what the poster seems to be saying.

[mike777]

If 1D-1S-2D-2S shows extras playing weak jump shifts how does one bid QJxxxx Qxxxx --- xx?

Good question, at least not playing wjs you can bid 1d=2h, reverse flannery. or FLOP.

[keylime]

I treat 2♠ here as (7)8-10 exactly. I'd jump with any reasonable 11 count to three since we open disciplined one-bids.

 

FWIW, we often raise three to an honor because responder's next bid of 2NT clarifies the raise and the shape of opener's hand (it's forcing).

[luke warm]

i would normally play 1d : 1s : 2d : 2s as 5-8/9 and an offer to play in this 5 (probably 6+) card suit

[P_Marlowe]

OK I guess that means with:

AKx....xxx...AJxxxx...x you bid 3S.

 

I assume you will not rebid 2D with:

AKx...xxx...AQxxxx..x

 

I think a 2♦ rebid on the above two hands over 1♠ is horrible. The simple way to avoid missing a ♠ game is to raise 1♠ to 2♠.

Raising responders mayor regular with 3 card

has its adv. and its dis. adv.

 

I dont want to go over the arguments pro / contra

again, just look at the threads, but look at my PS

to get some points, which speak against this syle.

 

What people always forget discussing single hands /

auctions is, that a certain style which helps you with the

hand in question will mess up the rest of your bidding structure.

 

Somebody will say, it is worth it, some not.

 

Withss kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Raising with 3 cards has its problems:

Usually you dont have set the trump suit with the

raise, hence you will need a mechanismen to sort it

out, which game 3NT or 4M, how to start a slam

exploration.

[whereagles]

Luis, it's difficult to give a definite answer to your question of what requirements you need for the 2♠ bid. As you know, a 2♠ bid in this situation can be the lesser evil with a hand like

 

♠ KJTxx

♥ xxx

♦

♣ Kxxxx

 

Sure, you can build prototypes for the 2♠ bid, like the book examples on on stuff like AQJxxx xxx x Qxx, but in reality it's hard to say what type of hand 2♠ really shows, since it can vary a lot. The frontiers get better defined if you play weak jump, though.

 

As for whether if should be constructive or not, well, if you play 3rd suit forcing (e.g. 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥* = art, forcing, inv+), then you can play 2♠ as not-so-constructive. Otherwise you may have a case for a constructive 2♠. I say "may" because it's not certain it should be so.

[pbleighton]

"Without gadgets, 2S shows less than invitational values, ~6-9, with (usually) 6+ cards.

 

That doesn't mean opener can't bid again (unless maybe you are playing a 15+ strong club). With AJx-KQx-AQJxxx-x, you are surely not going to pass.

 

Peter

 

 

If you hold this hand, haven't you already grossly underbid by only bidding 2♦? So, sure, if you grossly underbid then you can correct it later if you get the chance.

 

I'd say that if you would raise with 3 card support and a singleton that it is tough to find a 12-14 pt hand with ♠ doubleton that would want to take some action. Perhaps not impossible but I would imagine such hands are rare."

 

Oops! I was sleeping :angry:

 

Try again. I don't raise with 3 card support and a singleton if the three card suit is worthless. A hand like xxx-AKx-AKJxxx-x is one I would rebid 2D, and then bid 3S over 2S. Not common, but not totally rare. You may raise to 2S on this, it's a matter of style.

 

Peter

[mike777]

"Try again. I don't raise with 3 card support and a singleton if the three card suit is worthless. A hand like xxx-AKx-AKJxxx-x is one I would rebid 2D, and then bid 3S over 2S. Not common, but not totally rare. You may raise to 2S on this, it's a matter of style."

 

 

Wow bidding 2d on that hand seems to be a huge position even if we assume 1s may be on zero hcp. :rolleyes:.

[kenberg]

Luis, it's difficult to give a definite answer to your question of what requirements you need for the 2♠ bid. As you know, a 2♠ bid in this situation can be the lesser evil with a hand like

 

♠ KJTxx

♥ xxx

♦

♣ Kxxxx

 

Sure, you can build prototypes for the 2♠ bid, like the book examples on on stuff like AQJxxx xxx x Qxx, but in reality it's hard to say what type of hand 2♠ really shows, since it can vary a lot. The frontiers get better defined if you play weak jump, though.

 

As for whether if should be constructive or not, well, if you play 3rd suit forcing (e.g. 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥* = art, forcing, inv+), then you can play 2♠ as not-so-constructive. Otherwise you may have a case for a constructive 2♠. I say "may" because it's not certain it should be so.

On the above hand, after 1D-1S-2D, I would pass 2D.

It will probably go down. However:

 

a. We are not yet doubled. If we are, I will perhaps trot out the spades, or maybe better redouble, which should show a hand that can't stand diamonds but isn't all that enamored with spades either. Also only modest hearts since with 5-4 surely I would have bid 2H or pulled to 2H. Pard can try clubs if he is really short in spades.

 

b. On some other day I might actually have a better hand. I would like partner to think more positively of my spades on those times when I do rebid spades.

 

 

So

 

1D-1S-2D-2S for me should be something like

 

KQxxxx

xx

x

Qxxx

 

 

You can't always get what you want, they tell me, but I would like to wait on something like this before rebidding 2S.

 

There is a neigboring thread discussing whether 1m-1M-2m-3M is forcing. In my style, no. Change the xx of hearts to Ax, and one of the spades spots to the ten, and it appears to me to be a 3S bid. With trash, pard can pass.

 

As noted, if you play that my KQxxxx, xx, x, Qxxx hand can be bid 1D-2S, then of course this changes things. Perhaps that's a good idea, I just have never done it.

[Gerben42]

The other group says "Without values responder can pass 2♦ so when he bids 2♠ it's non-forcing but shows values, at least the values to decide not to pass 2♦ so opener with a good hand can cooperate and bid again"

 

I'm in this group.

[cherdano]

The other group says "Without values responder can pass 2♦ so when he bids 2♠ it's non-forcing but shows values, at least the values to decide not to pass 2♦ so opener with a good hand can cooperate and bid again"

 

I'm in this group.

Me too. Although the hands where I would bid again as opener are rare.