Big 6-4 opposite 7-5

[barmar]

This hand at our f2f club game seemed to give lots of pairs trouble.

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&w=sak9832h5dqjcak82&e=sthak98743dat752c]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

I was West, and with the opponents silent, the bidding went 1♥-1♠-2♥-3♣-3♥-3♠-P.

 

The defense wasn't great, so I made 6, and we ended up with a dead average on the board, since there were several pairs going down (presumably in slams). But we obviously should have been in game. How do you think these hands should have been bid?

 

We play Standard American with most of the popular gadgets (it's mostly like 2/1 except that we don't play that 2/1 is game forcing). So if partner had rebid 2♦ I could have established a game force with Fourth Suit Forcing, but once he bid 2♥ I don't think any conventions were available to me.

[whereagles]

It's matchpoints, right? Open 4♥, intending to (eventually) double later to show the extra defense.

[pclayton]

1♥-1♠

2♦-3♣

3♥-3N

4♥-pass

[pbleighton]

To me, 3C is GF in this auction in Standard American - new suit at the 3 level.

 

Peter

[hatchett]

You finished in 3♠? Well 3♣ is a clear game force and partner is not entitled to pass 3♠. On your auction I would raise 3♠ to 4♠.

 

I would bid

 

1♥ 1♠

2♦ 3♣

3♥ 

 

I would now pull in a notch opposite at least 6-4 in the reds with

.....3NT

4♥

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1H (1) - 1S (2)

2D (3) - 3C (4)

3D (5) - 3NT(6)

Pass(7)

 

(1) obvious

(1) obvious

(3) style issue, but I prefer to show

my shape

(4) 4th suit

(5) 5-5, no 3 card spade support (3H would still imply 5-4)

(6) what else? The spade suit is not

good enough to play opposite singel / void

on the 4 level

(7) 4H is an option

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

While I have sympathy for west here, this thread belongs in the beginner section. No advanced player would pass 3♠: going through 3♣ established 3♠ as unconditionally forcing in any natural method: and even a modicum of understanding of the game would demonstrate that it has to: what on earth is west to bid to keep the auction moving along if 3♠ is non-forcing?

 

As for how best to bid the hands, freaks are always problematic, so there will be several plausible sequences.

 

For me, never showing an A10xxx suit is a crime.

 

1♥   1♠

2♦   3♣

3♥   3♠

4♥   ?

 

is a logical start.

 

Note that the sequence of long suit/side suit/long suit is traditionally reserved to show a good 6-4 opening. While East lacks the number of hcp generally associated with such a sequence, only a non-bridge player would deem the hand a minimum opener.

 

As it is, west can listen to the auction. His QJ♦ are great and his black controls will dispose of any late round ♦ losers if east has the 11 red cards hinted at by his sequence.

 

I would keycard over 4♥... and bid slam only if partner showed 3 keycards and the ♥Q: my concern being that with only 3 kecards, we could easily need a 3=3 trump fit... I'd stay out for the wrong reason, not because I knew what was going on.

 

I had written a much longer, and aggressive, rant, criticizing several posts here. I have deleted it. But let me say: I am convinced that almost no-one, given the hands individually, would perpetrate either of these grotesque calls:

 

1) open 1♥, rebid 2♦ and then, over 3♣, show a 5-5 red hand with 3♦

 

2) respond 1♠ and after a FSF 3♣ fetches 3♥ (showing extra values) or 3♦ choose 3N. Have you NEVER seen opener bid that way with 2=6=4=1 (for 3♥) or 2=5=5=1 (for 3♦)???????????

 

Does anyone think that after 1♥/2♦/3♥, a game in ♥ is going to fail????

 

Or that opener cannot hold x AKQxxx AKxx xx: should he bid over 3N once he has already shown an extra value 6=4? Maybe he might risk 4N over 3N, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

Ok, that was my kind and gentle rant... you should have seen what I originally wrote. Please, please try not to tailor your auctions so as to get a good result as the cards lie: you are fooling only yourselves, or those who read these posts in the hope of learning how to handle difficult hands.

[joshs]

This hand at our f2f club game seemed to give lots of pairs trouble.

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&w=sak9832h5dqjcak82&e=sthak98743dat752c]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

I was West, and with the opponents silent, the bidding went 1♥-1♠-2♥-3♣-3♥-3♠-P.

 

The defense wasn't great, so I made 6, and we ended up with a dead average on the board, since there were several pairs going down (presumably in slams). But we obviously should have been in game. How do you think these hands should have been bid?

 

We play Standard American with most of the popular gadgets (it's mostly like 2/1 except that we don't play that 2/1 is game forcing). So if partner had rebid 2♦ I could have established a game force with Fourth Suit Forcing, but once he bid 2♥ I don't think any conventions were available to me.

Its a difficult hand, but a new suit at the 3 level always sets up a game force in standard american (in fact many play that a new suit above 2 of the opening bidders suit sets up a game force), so you can't pass 3S.

 

I don't really like the 2H rebid, but I can't say for sure what rebid is really best. 2D, 3H, 4H and even 3D all seem like possibilities (I don't like 3D with that few high cards but you do have almost the offense for a game force). I would rebid 2D and then bid 4H next if you have a chance.

[joshs]

1♥-1♠

2♦-3♣

3♥-3N

4♥-pass

I prefer:

1H-1S-2D-3C-4H-P

 

AKxxxxx is worth a jump, I think, unless you think that shows a solid suit (AKQxxxx) instead of a "1 loser opposite a stiff" suit.

[awm]

Well I agree with most of what's been posted.

 

I'm not sure why mikeh claims that after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣, opener's 3♥ bid shows extra values though. Even if we'd always rebid 2♥ with a minimum 6-4 (far from clear to do this, I think, since 2♦ will often generate a 2♥ correction anyway, whereas especially if the hearts are poor it can be wrong to unilaterally insist on hearts and show six cards instead of nine)... what's opener's rebid with a hand like:

 

xx

AKxxx

KQxx

xx

 

If 3♦ shows five-five, 3♥ shows 6-4 with extras, and 3♠ shows three-card support (or at least doubleton honor), then what's opener to bid? 3NT with two small clubs? If in your style 3♠ is normally doubleton, then change a small spade to a small club and we have the same problem.

 

My impression was that the standard style uses 3♥ as a "waiting bid" with no convenient call, which could be 6-4 or just a hand with no clear stopper in the fourth suit and no real fit for partner. This would certainly not show extra values. In fact 3NT seems to me a fairly normal call over this 3♥ bid, saying "hey, I have a club stopper and this hand sounds misfitty, let's play 3NT." Of course I'd pull to 4♥ with opener's hand. It would not occur to me to bid 4♥ as responder, since this could be a 5-1 fit (or 6-1 fit opposite a min with a heart suit not good enough to rebid 2♥). Bidding 3♠ over 3♥ could be right, but it will be difficult to ever get to 3NT when partner can't raise the spades, and this spade suit isn't really good enough to play opposite a small singleton in general.

[Walddk]

It's matchpoints, right? Open 4♥, intending to (eventually) double later to show the extra defense.

4♥!!??? Please confirm that you accidentally posted here when you meant to do it in The Water Cooler, if you need a smile ...... forum. But OK, I'll bite and smile :)

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

1) open 1♥, rebid 2♦ and then, over 3♣, show a 5-5 red hand with 3♦

 

2) respond 1♠ and after a FSF 3♣ fetches 3♥ (showing extra values) or 3♦ choose 3N. Have you NEVER seen opener bid that way with 2=6=4=1 (for 3♥) or 2=5=5=1 (for 3♦)???????????

Hi Mike,

 

I suppose it depends on your agreements

regarding 4th suit forcing seq.

 

And the key agreement in the auction we

are discussing now, is the answer to the question:

"What is your default rebid in case you dont

have a nice answer to the 4th suit inquiry?"

 

There are 2 different schools I know off

- rebid the cheaper suit, in this case diamond,

which allows sometimes to show 6-4

- rebid the first suit, which allows you to show

5-5, 6-5 in case you repeat the 2nd suit

 

What ever your agreement is, will influence

your answer to 3C.

Belonging to the 2nd school, 3H may still be

better, if one intends to bid 4H over 3NT,

which should show 6-4 or 7-4 shape, you may

convince me about that, but do not claim 3D

is complete ridiculous, since you are showing +10

cards instead of only 9.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: But I agree with you that this topic belongs to the beginner section,

because every beginner should know how to play 4th suit way before

he starts to add a lot useless conventions.

[barmar]

Ok, that was my kind and gentle rant... you should have seen what I originally wrote. Please, please try not to tailor your auctions so as to get a good result as the cards lie: you are fooling only yourselves, or those who read these posts in the hope of learning how to handle difficult hands.

Kind and gentle? Now I feel bad for having emailed my partner asking him to check here. I was expecting criticism, not insults. He's a decent player, hardly a beginner, and I've been happy to have him as a regular partner for the past 4-5 years. He made a mistake in a relatively uncommon auction with freakish hands -- he thought he was reasonably putting on the brakes when we were in a total misfit.

 

And I didn't realize 3♣ was a game force in our auction, I thought I was forcing to game when I bid over his 3♥ (since there's no room for both forcing and invitational bids there, it should be assumed to be forcing).

[barmar]

PS: But I agree with you that this topic belongs to the beginner section,

because every beginner should know how to play 4th suit way before

he starts to add a lot useless conventions.

4th suit wasn't available in the original auction, because opener never bid his 2nd suit.

[pclayton]

.............

 

2) respond 1♠ and after a FSF 3♣ fetches 3♥ (showing extra values) or 3♦ choose 3N. Have you NEVER seen opener bid that way with 2=6=4=1 (for 3♥) or 2=5=5=1 (for 3♦)???????????

I'll rant myself.

 

It seems to me that opener can just as likely be: void, AJxxxx, AKxx, xxx. Pard rebids 3♠ in the given auction? Choose your call please.

 

Responder has a tough choice between showing the double stop in the unbid suit and rebidding a 6 bagger in the face of a misfit.

 

Nothing to get excited about Mike.

[joshs]

Well I agree with most of what's been posted.

 

I'm not sure why mikeh claims that after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣, opener's 3♥ bid shows extra values though. Even if we'd always rebid 2♥ with a minimum 6-4 (far from clear to do this, I think, since 2♦ will often generate a 2♥ correction anyway, whereas especially if the hearts are poor it can be wrong to unilaterally insist on hearts and show six cards instead of nine)... what's opener's rebid with a hand like:

 

xx

AKxxx

KQxx

xx

 

If 3♦ shows five-five, 3♥ shows 6-4 with extras, and 3♠ shows three-card support (or at least doubleton honor), then what's opener to bid? 3NT with two small clubs? If in your style 3♠ is normally doubleton, then change a small spade to a small club and we have the same problem.

 

My impression was that the standard style uses 3♥ as a "waiting bid" with no convenient call, which could be 6-4 or just a hand with no clear stopper in the fourth suit and no real fit for partner. This would certainly not show extra values. In fact 3NT seems to me a fairly normal call over this 3♥ bid, saying "hey, I have a club stopper and this hand sounds misfitty, let's play 3NT." Of course I'd pull to 4♥ with opener's hand. It would not occur to me to bid 4♥ as responder, since this could be a 5-1 fit (or 6-1 fit opposite a min with a heart suit not good enough to rebid 2♥). Bidding 3♠ over 3♥ could be right, but it will be difficult to ever get to 3NT when partner can't raise the spades, and this spade suit isn't really good enough to play opposite a small singleton in general.

I don't think 3H shows extras, it may not even be a 6 card suit, since you have to rebid something with Kx AKQxx xxxx xx.

 

I wouldn't say that 3H is totally a waiting bid. I think the expert style is when you have a choice between a between a number of forcing calls that are equally descriptive (or misdescriptive) you pick the cheapist one, since that saves space to explore all strains.

 

So on adam's example xx AKxxx KQxx xx, think its clear to rebid 3D, which gives partner room to preference hearts on 2 and you room to preference spades on 2 next. But with Kx AKxxx Qxxx xx you probably just need to bid 3H or 3S since the diamonds are extremely weak. There is a case to be made that 3D should just be a waiting bid, saying nothing, but I don't think thats common.

[mikeh]

Well I agree with most of what's been posted.

 

I'm not sure why mikeh claims that after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣, opener's 3♥ bid shows extra values though.

Sorry, I should have been more precise.

 

I agree that, after FSF, it is common to use the 3♥ rebid as a waiting bid.... whether that is the choice or whether 3♦ is preferable is a partnership issue. But what I meant was that when East embarked upon his bidding plan, he should be bidding 2♦ over 1♠, with the intention of bidding 3♥ next: thus had partner bid 2N over 2♦, 3♥ would confirm the longer ♥ suit with extra values rather than the sequence 1♥/2♥/3♦, which traditionally showed a weak 6=4.

[Blofeld]

After

1♥ 1♠

2♦ 3♣

3♥ 3♠/3NT (as you prefer),

I think I'd bid 4♦ as opener. This has to show a 6/5 or 7/5 or 7/6 hand, right? Diamond slam is still possible, and I'd expect partner to retreat to 4♥ without interest.

 

Am willing to be convinced that I'm wrong, though.

[mikeh]

  Now I feel bad for having emailed my partner asking him to check here.  I was expecting criticism, not insults.  He's a decent player, hardly a beginner, and I've been happy to have him as a regular partner for the past 4-5 years.  He made a mistake in a relatively uncommon auction with freakish hands -- he thought he was reasonably putting on the brakes when we were in a total misfit.

 

And I didn't realize 3♣ was a game force in our auction, I thought I was forcing to game when I bid over his 3♥ (since there's no room for both forcing and invitational bids there, it should be assumed to be forcing).

I am sorry that you felt that this question, of the forcing nature of the 3♠ call, was an 'advanced' or 'expert' issue.

 

I suspect that this is the result of unrestrained self-ranking inflation: the sort of thing that results in the best couple of players on even a mediocre professional sports team being called 'superstars'.

 

I am technically WC by BBO standards. I consider myself an expert and I have played with, been teammates of and played against players I consider to be truly WC, so I think I have earned some right to speak on the rankings issue.

 

Why and when did it become more important to call oneself advanced or expert than it is to try to improve?

 

The player who passed 3♠ committed a beginner's error. Okay, today we don't like to hurt anyone's feelings: let's say he committed an intermediate error. But for pete's sake, why try to argue that that error was the type of error that an advanced player could easily make? It is not. It is a beginner/intermediate eror.

 

Now, does that mean that the player who made it is an idiot or a beginner or an intermediate?

 

Absolutely not. I have made and no doubt will continue to make bonehead bids and plays, and until dementia hits me, I will (I hope) remain, on the whole, an expert. Every player of every level makes mistakes that are, in theory, beneath him or her. Experts play badly, everyone else plays worse, to paraphrase one of the greatest players of all time.

 

Your partner may have hit a hole in an otherwise admirable understanding of the game. The unusual auction makes that a possibility. He may well possess many or almost all of the attributes of an advanced or expert player: but he made a beginner's mistake. I was not insulting him or you when I characterized it as such.

 

I began as a beginner. By the time I was (looking back) charitably of an advanced status, I was sure I was an expert: I had merely lacked the stage upon which to prove my obvious ability. Then I got a chance to start playing with and against experts and soon realized how utterly wrong I had been in my self-assessment. It was both a painful and a rewarding experience, painful to my always oversized ego and rewarding in that several of these true experts kept playing with me despite my poor play, and eventually I learned not only more about the game but also that the more one learns, the more there is to learn. And one does not learn by flattering oneself. Refusing to accept that an advanced player ought to know that this 3♠ bid is forcing is such flattery.

[civill]

I think 4♥ is a good contract,this is a sequence to arrival it:

[1♥-1♠]

[2♦-3♣]    4SF

[4♥-pass]

[whereagles]

It's matchpoints, right? Open 4♥, intending to (eventually) double later to show the extra defense.

4♥!!??? Please confirm that you accidentally posted here when you meant to do it in The Water Cooler, if you need a smile ...... forum. But OK, I'll bite and smile B)

 

Roland

Why are you always picking on me? You're getting irritating. Is that the idea?

 

Anyway, if you don't understand why 4♥ is an option, then I guess you should stick to imps.

[Finch]

Ok, that was my kind and gentle rant... you should have seen what I originally wrote. Please, please try not to tailor your auctions so as to get a good result as the cards lie: you are fooling only yourselves, or those who read these posts in the hope of learning how to handle difficult hands.

Kind and gentle? Now I feel bad for having emailed my partner asking him to check here. I was expecting criticism, not insults. He's a decent player, hardly a beginner, and I've been happy to have him as a regular partner for the past 4-5 years. He made a mistake in a relatively uncommon auction with freakish hands -- he thought he was reasonably putting on the brakes when we were in a total misfit.

 

And I didn't realize 3♣ was a game force in our auction, I thought I was forcing to game when I bid over his 3♥ (since there's no room for both forcing and invitational bids there, it should be assumed to be forcing).

I'm sorry if you think I am being rude as well, but I agree with (nearly) everything mike wrote. If you don't know that (in standard methods) 1H-1S-2H-3C is game forcing, then your grasp of basic bidding is not advanced or expert.

 

As for the actual hand, starting the auction

 

1H - 1S

2D - 3C

3H

 

seems obvious

 

Over 3H from opener, I would bid 3S as responder showing a good hand with spades (opener could have Qx AKQxxx Axxx x where knowing about the spade fit helps).

 

As opener I would bid 4D over 3S, which must imply pretty close to a 7-5, maybe a 6-5 with good hearts.

 

Now responder has a difficult call. A load of extra high cards, but a mis-fitting hand and knowing that partner's "extra values" are likely to be mainly extra length in the red suits. I think it's marginal between giving up with 4H and making a slam try. That's consistent with slam being very poor but playable (basically hearts 3-2 and the diamond finesse) on that hand.

[Finch]

Well I agree with most of what's been posted.

 

I'm not sure why mikeh claims that after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣, opener's 3♥ bid shows extra values though. Even if we'd always rebid 2♥ with a minimum 6-4 (far from clear to do this, I think, since 2♦ will often generate a 2♥ correction anyway, whereas especially if the hearts are poor it can be wrong to unilaterally insist on hearts and show six cards instead of nine)... what's opener's rebid with a hand like:

 

xx

AKxxx

KQxx

xx

 

If 3♦ shows five-five, 3♥ shows 6-4 with extras, and 3♠ shows three-card support (or at least doubleton honor), then what's opener to bid? 3NT with two small clubs? If in your style 3♠ is normally doubleton, then change a small spade to a small club and we have the same problem.

 

My impression was that the standard style uses 3♥ as a "waiting bid" with no convenient call, which could be 6-4 or just a hand with no clear stopper in the fourth suit and no real fit for partner. This would certainly not show extra values. In fact 3NT seems to me a fairly normal call over this 3♥ bid, saying "hey, I have a club stopper and this hand sounds misfitty, let's play 3NT." Of course I'd pull to 4♥ with opener's hand. It would not occur to me to bid 4♥ as responder, since this could be a 5-1 fit (or 6-1 fit opposite a min with a heart suit not good enough to rebid 2♥). Bidding 3♠ over 3♥ could be right, but it will be difficult to ever get to 3NT when partner can't raise the spades, and this spade suit isn't really good enough to play opposite a small singleton in general.

I don't think 3H shows extras, it may not even be a 6 card suit, since you have to rebid something with Kx AKQxx xxxx xx.

 

I wouldn't say that 3H is totally a waiting bid. I think the expert style is when you have a choice between a between a number of forcing calls that are equally descriptive (or misdescriptive) you pick the cheapist one, since that saves space to explore all strains.

 

So on adam's example xx AKxxx KQxx xx, think its clear to rebid 3D, which gives partner room to preference hearts on 2 and you room to preference spades on 2 next. But with Kx AKxxx Qxxx xx you probably just need to bid 3H or 3S since the diamonds are extremely weak. There is a case to be made that 3D should just be a waiting bid, saying nothing, but I don't think thats common.

Now I'm going to be rude to a few other people as well. Always good to start the day off well!

 

We're now talking about the auction

1H - 1S

2D- 3C

?

 

when opener has a 2542 distribution

 

i) If you think that opener's rebid holding Kx AKQxx xxxx xx or similar is anything remotely resembling a problem, then I'm expect your partner thinks you are a hog. That's not a hand you need to 'temporise' with at all, it's an easy 3S bid.

 

ii) I also believe 3S is right holding xx AKxxx KQxx xx, and I also don't think this is an issue (though I am aware more people would disagree with me here).

 

When responding to an enquiry (which is what 4th suit is really) we always ask ourselves: what have I shown so far, and what is the most important thing I haven't shown?

 

When the auction starts 1H - 1S - 2D, as opener we have shown

- 5 or more hearts

- 4 or more diamonds

- 0,1, or 2 spades OR 3 spades with extra values

 

(we would raise 1S to 2S on a minimum 3541)

 

The 3 spades with extra values will take care of itself (we will bid again), so the main thing partner doesn't know about is that we have 2 spades rather than 0 or 1. Therefore, that's what we should tell him about.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Frances,

 

even if one raises spade with a minimum hand

and 3 support, a style issue, those raises

have their adv. and its disadv.,

there exist minimum openers with 1-5-4-3 shape.

And I dont talk about hands with a club suit Hxx.

 

If you say, you rebid 3D with those hands, thats fine,

than a 3H bid shows a 6 card suit and add. values,

if you say a 3D bid shows always 5-5, than 3H cant

promise add. strength.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

Thre are many options

 

1♥-1♠

4♥

 

1♥-1♠

2♥-3♣

3♥-4♥

 

 

1♥-1♠

2♦-3♣

3♥-3♠

4♥