2 part question

[mike777]

MP Both VUL. You may assume partner has less than a balanced 11 hcp if that matters.

 

Comments and feedback welcomed.

 

K6....KT86...96....KQ863

 

p=(1D)=?

 

Part1=your bid and why?

 

Part2=assume you passed and the bidding proceeds:

p=(1D)=p=(1NT)

p= p =?

 

Your bid and why?

[whereagles]

1. I bid 2♣ because (1m)-2 other m are some of the most bothersome overcalls in bridge.

 

2. Now I pass. If something, I bid 2♥. The risk of LHO having clubs is too high.

 

Better to overcall at the first chance than after letting opps exchange information.

[pclayton]

Over 1♦ I bid 1N, Raptor. Oh thats right, Raptor sucks and no one good plays it.

 

OK, then I try 2♦ showing 4+♥ and 5+♣. Dangerous! But danger is my business, baby :)

 

Well then I'll just pass and pass 1N. Maybe a 35% board won't be so bad....

[Walddk]

1. I bid 2♣ because (1m)-2 other m are some of the most bothersome overcalls in bridge.

Indeed, especially when it costs 1100 :)

[hatchett]

Pass and Pass

 

Vulnerable opposite a passed partner there is very little upside in overcalling on a weak no trump type hand at the 2 level and a lot of downside.

[joshs]

MP Both VUL. You may assume partner has less than a balanced 11 hcp if that matters.

 

Comments and feedback welcomed.

 

K6....KT86...96....KQ863

 

p=(1D)=?

 

Part1=your bid and why?

 

Part2=assume you passed and the bidding proceeds:

p=(1D)=p=(1NT)

p= p =?

 

Your bid and why?

1. This is a clear pass. You have only a moderate suit (for a 2 level bid), a bare min opening hand, partner is a passed hand, and you are vul. If the auction goes all pass I assure you that you have close to a bottom, and getting xed would be worse, and getting raised to 3C and then xed is worse still.

 

2. Again pass. White vs White you might consider bidding 2C (it pays to overbid W/W at mps) but what do you think LHO's longest suit is for his 1N bid? He has at least 7 minor suit cards (since no major), will often have 8, and will very often have 4 clubs. I would guess that his average club length is about 4 and would be even longer than that if they didn't play inverted raises. At equal white, when in doubt bid, at equal red, when in doubt pass, especially when you have no singleton in your hand...

[mike777]

My partner on this hand just reminded me of our toy we have in the dead NT seat> I forget it until he reminded me 24 hours later :).

 

 

Without that I thought this was an interesting problem, I passed and passed for a low score, most bid 2c in direct or balance seat and got away with it.

[mikeh]

Pass is clear over 1♦, and this comes from a player who believes that this one sequence is the one in which one should stretch the most to overcall. But this hand is awful, red. It is not the 1100 I mind (after all, estimating my mp score then would be easy), but the fact that we are red and will often go -200 undoubled against a partscore.

 

Afet 1N P P , then Pass is even more clear, if that were possible.

 

As for the toy you mention, Mike... I play that double here would be primarily defensive, suggesting a semi-balanced opening hand with good ♦ and 2♣ is general takeout: is that the toy you are thinking of? If so, I would expect partnetr to bid 2♦ with equal majors, and to bid 2♠ far more often than either pass (very unlikely unless opener is 4=4=4=1 or the like) or 2♥. And I'd rather not lay this hand down in 2♠

[mike777]

Thanks I wanted the feedback in a natural setting so thanks for replies, I did pass and pass at the table.

 

The toy is modified Dont. We play this over 1nt openings as well as dead 1nt bids: When I remember I should add >l

 

 

x=single suit in clubs or D or Both majors.

h=hearts

s=spades

2c or 2D=that suit and higher

Note this can be bid on some 4-4 hands, need not be 5-5 or 5-4.

[mikeh]

I'm not at all sure I understand your modified DONT.

 

I have difficulty constructing a hand on which I would balance red after (1minor) P (1N) P (P) with a single suited major hand.

 

It seems to me that your method is catering to one of:

 

1) mis-sorted my hand, so did not see that I had an overcall to start with

 

2) fell asleep and just now woke up

 

3) a suicidal urge

 

4) a sadistic urge to torture partner

 

Now, I have certainly experienced all of the above (rarely more than one or two on the same hand), but I doubt that one should design one's methods around these possibilities.

[inquiry]

I am not quite sure you rant here is justified. This is MP so -1100 can be jsut as bad as -90, -120 or even +100 for defending.

 

Second, I don't think he means this as DONT, but rather meckwell, so 2!C shows clubs and a major. That doesn't mean 2C is correct, but against pairs who are timid to double at matchpoints, 2C (if it shows clubs and another suit) is not a horrible call (here instead of 2C to show the majors (general takout you call it), double shows both majors or a good single minor.

 

Given it is matchpoints, it is up to the player to determine the frequency of risk versus gain. I suspect 2 any would be doubled and thus risky to the extreme,, but there you go, some people will try it EVEN if 2!C means just clubs.

[mike777]

We play modified DONT over strong nt opening bids. To keep memory strain at a low level we play the same over dead nt not meckwell. This may not be best in theory! But I have enough trouble remembering this one :P. Good thing to discuss with my partners who play this though. thanks.

 

Note many just overcalled 2clubs with this hand at the table....

[whereagles]

1. I bid 2♣ because (1m)-2 other m are some of the most bothersome overcalls in bridge.

Indeed, especially when it costs 1100 :)

You're just jealous because my frisky butt-ins are immune to 1100s :)

[Gerben42]

You're just jealous because my frisky butt-ins are immune to 1100s

 

Hmm... you go for 800 then? Anyway, I think overcalling 2♣ over 1♦ on this is suicidal. Either you have a Raptor and bid it, or you do not and pass.

 

If you have some tricks after 1NT is about to be passed out, be my guest. With a pickup partner I just say: Your lead partner.

[joker_gib]

Pass and pass

 

If I bid I'll go -200 or more and collect a zero.

 

Alain

[whereagles]

Anyway, I think overcalling 2♣ over 1♦ on this is suicidal. Either you have a Raptor and bid it, or you do not and pass.

Overcalling (1♦)-2♣ or not is a matter of style, and my style is to be the master of my own destiny. Meaning: when I have a chance to try and do things myself, I take it. I don't like to be at the mercy of the opponent's bidding.

 

Some call this is the 'in quick, out quick' principle.

[Walddk]

Some call this is the 'in quick, out quick' principle.

Others call it the "in quick, 800-1100 out" principle. I am one of those who has that view, and apparently I am not the only one. I agree with Gerben when he says "suicidal". Sure you can get away with a 2♣ overcall, but it's not worth the risk in my opinion.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

What can I say? We have different styles.

 

And for your information, I usually get away with murder when I preempt. I hardly ever get caught speeding. There was a time I used to, but not anymore because I learned to look at my hand instead of following book guidlines.

[Walddk]

There was a time I used to, but not anymore because I learned to look at my hand instead of following book guidlines.

Excuse me, but allow me to say that you have not had a close look at your hand if you think this is a 2♣ overcall vulnerable facing a passed partner. You don't need to read or have read books to come to this conclusion. It's called common sense.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Excuse me, but allow me to say that you have not had a close look at your hand if you think this is a 2♣ overcall vulnerable facing a passed partner. You don't need to read or have read books to come to this conclusion. It's called common sense.

The trouble with common sense it that each person has his own common sense. You come from a time when 2-level overcalls promised the world. Things have changed; people have realized there are other priorities for a 2-level overcall, not just safety. In this case, there's a lot to be said for a 2♣ overcall. I could present my arguments, but, since you disagree, I won't bother you with it.

 

I guess we should just agree we disagree.

[Walddk]

Excuse me, but allow me to say that you have not had a close look at your hand if you think this is a 2♣ overcall vulnerable facing a passed partner. You don't need to read or have read books to come to this conclusion. It's called common sense.

The trouble with common sense it that each person has his own common sense. You come from a time when 2-level overcalls promised the world. Things have changed; people have realized there are other priorities for a 2-level overcall, not just safety. In this case, there's a lot to be said for a 2♣ overcall. I could present my arguments, but, since you disagree, I won't bother you with it.

 

I guess we should just agree we disagree.

You seem to disagree with everybody who has posted in this thread, not just me. Regarding what has changed and not changed, maybe one would find this interesting:

 

I presented the hand to one of my assistants at the bridge centre. He is 28 years old and a Danish international.

 

"Here is your hand. MP, both vulnerable. Pass by partner, 1♦ to your right. What do you bid"?

 

"Pass. You can't be serious that anyone would bid anything else".

 

"Well, some might overcall 2♣", I added.

 

"Only if they are glue sniffers, period", was the reply and off he was.

 

I am not quite sure what he means by "glue sniffers", but I have a feeling. I will make sure to ask him next time he's around.

 

By the way, how do you know that I come from a time when 2-level bids promise a lot? Pure speculation on your part. You, on the other hand, seem to be the individual who prefers and enjoys being the boss at the table and mastermind at every opportunity. Poor partner(s) is all I can say.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Roland, don't take this personally, but I find it rather ridiculous to go out and ask people what they'd do with in this or that situation for the sole purpose of proving a point. It's kinda like saying "I pass because experts A and B also pass".

 

As for your accusation of me being a masterminding hog, pure speculation on your part. I just happen to be someone who managed to realize that sometimes it isn't enough to "bid my hand". There are occasions when a player has to make decisions instead of passing the ball to pard, hoping he can "sort it out".

 

One has to have the courage to rise to one's responsibilities when the time comes. Failure to take charge is nr. 1 source of misunderstandings at table, and the reason people frequently argue after the play is over.

 

If you're still not convinced.. well, I can say this: I'd rather be a hog than a rabbit. If you see what I mean.. :rolleyes:

[Walddk]

This is the Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion forum. I hope they will listen to what is said by the vast majority in this thread and not to a loner whose wish it is to hog the hand.

 

I think it's wrong and even dangerous to tell B/I's that 2♣ is a sensible option. I tend to agree with slothy when he, in another thread, claims that the most important invention in life is the pass card in the bidding box.

 

What a shame that they seem to have removed all of them from whereagles box.

 

Roland