Your next bid is ...?

[Walddk]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sak4hak3d86ckqj72]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Danish Team Championships, finals. This was a decisive board in the last segment.

 

RHO passes and you open a strong 1♣ (15+). LHO overcalls 1♦, natural, and 1♠ from partner, 5+ spades, 8+ hcp. Now a pre-emptive 3♦ by East and you support to 3♠.

 

Partner cue bids 4♣, and your 4♥ is also a cue bid, denying a diamond control. North 4♠ to you.

 

Your next bid is .....? And why?

 

Roland

[pbleighton]

I am suspicious, Roland :)

 

I don't see why pass isn't automatic, as you are wide open in diamonds. Do you hope to fake the opps out of a diamond lead?

 

Peter

[joker_gib]

hum, seems strange :)

 

Do you want us to cue bid in ♦ in order that they lead something else ?

 

The best call is 7♠, they will lead something else as they think you control the first round of ♦ :P

 

Alain

[whereagles]

Unless pard pard has exactly

 

Qxxxx

Qxx

xx

Axx

 

his 4♣ bid was a mere courtesy cue. I'm bidding 5♠ here, asking for diamond control. (Hope I'm playing that.. if not, I might try a 5♦ trelde asking bid, which I believe is popular in danishlandia.)

[Walddk]

Unless pard pard has exactly

 

Qxxxx

Qxx

xx

Axx

 

his 4♣ bid was a mere courtesy cue. I'm bidding 5♠ here, asking for diamond control. (Hope I'm playing that.. if not, I might try a 5♦ trelde asking bid, which I believe is popular in danishlandia.)

We cue bid when we have slam interest, so you can forget about that hand when responder already showed 8+ hcp.

 

Trelde (Danish Asking Bids) used to popular but they are not any more. Almost all top pairs have switched to cue bids.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

We cue bid when we have slam interest

Does

 

QJxxx

Qxx

Qx

Axx

 

qualify as 'slam interest'? If not, pard must have a diamond control for his bidding to make sense (and a fair hand). Something like

 

Qxxxx

Qxx

Kx

Axx

 

or better.

[joker_gib]

If he has a ♦ control, he doesn't bid 4♠ after the 4♣ cue and your cooperation with the 4♥bid, does he ?

 

IMO, he should take control and RKCB :ph34r:

[luis]

Well I fail to see the point of your post this time Roland.

For everybody here pass will be automatic, responder is not supossed to bid 4♠ with a diamond control. If this is something like "for his bidding, he can't be lacking the diamond control because..." I just don't buy it.

If in this partnership responder might have a diamond control then south has to guess and I dislike the method.s

If in this partnership responder can't have the diamond control pass is automatic.

It's boring either way at least to me.

 

Luis

[pclayton]

Two choices: 5♠ and Pass. 3♠ is rather vague since we are in a game force.

 

This is a classic problem and its why Serious / Non-Serious 3N was invented.

 

Pass aims for a small target: J9xxx, ,QJxx, Qx, Axx and similar hands where 5 is in jeopardy, but pass is still possible under the game before slam idea. 5♠ caters to the more likely: QJxxxx, Jxx, x, Axx.

 

I'm guessing the 4♠ bidder tanked? I would say Pass is a LA.

[P_Marlowe]

pass?

 

Marlowe

[awm]

Partner probably has a very minimum hand, and seems to be missing the top two trump honors. If you're playing serious/nonserious 3NT in this auction, then partner's 4♠ should deny a diamond card and you should pass. But otherwise I would think partner's normal call is 4♠ on some 8-9 point hand with bad trumps, even holding a diamond card. In this case bidding on over 4♠ seems fairly automatic. So depends on agreements, as usual.

[mike777]

Partner cannot have a stiff D or even Kx...so pass.

P could have rkc if he needed trump cards.

[Finch]

I don't think this is at all automatic.

 

Roland tells us that partner would only cue 4C 'with slam interest'. Personally I think responder should cue the majority of the time he has the ace of clubs, as opener is totally unlimited. Only with real dross (poor trumps, some of his HCP wasted in diamonds) should he not cue, e.g. 10xxxx Qxx Qxx Ax (give him the DJ as well and it's a natural 3NT bid).

 

We aren't told of the cue bidding style: if partner could have a singleton club for the 4C bid I have an easy pass.

 

I also don't think partner has denied a diamond control. He could be worried about trumps; he could be worried about the second round of clubs or hearts; he has no idea what we have other than 15+ HCP and 3+ trumps. Give him Q10xxx Qxxx x Axx and he really can't see where 12 tricks are coming from. We're the ones who can see that we may have an 8-card fit 28-HCP slam here: they are quite rare beasts.

 

It seems to be trying to land on a pinhead passing 4S, so I move. I know we have 12 tricks if partner does control diamonds, and we'd be exceptionally unlucky to be off at the 5-level.

 

I think raising to 5S asks for good trumps, so I cue 5C to focus his attention on the diamond issue.

[Walddk]

... so I cue 5C to focus his attention on the diamond issue.

This was exactly what happened in real life, but .......

 

The bright ones among you can surely figure out what comes after the "but". Let's see.

 

Roland

[luke warm]

The bright ones among you can surely figure out what comes after the "but".

i was *this* close to posting, till i read this.. so i'll wait for the bright ones to answer :P

[mikeh]

I am clearly not one of the bright ones, because I can think of several possibilities for what comes next, but.........

 

The only thing I can think of that stands out from any of the others is that the 4♠ call was made after a break in tempo.

 

Nothing else that could happen, either associated with the making of the 5♣ call or any subsequent action seems a candidate for the 'but....'

 

Thus slowness with the 5♣ call is meaningless: the tempo of 5♣ is hardly suggestive whereas the tempo of 4♠ is.

 

Nor can any reasonably forseeable call in response to 5♣ be the subject of concern.

 

So I opt for:..."but the 4♠ bid was made after much thought.."

[Kalvan14]

Strange hand, which should not be a problem at all. 3♠ is unlimited; 4♣ is clearly a cue-bid, with interest in slam;

4♥ is not last train. whatever he has, pard has denied a diamond cue-bid with 4♠. Even worse if it was a slow 4♠, which, IMHO, would bar me from bidding.

If pard has bad trumps, with a diamond stopper, his bid should be 5♠, not 4.

 

Did LHO double 5♣ for a lead? It would be again quite funny, since it would be an automatic re-double.

 

I'm looking forward seeing what I missed

[Walddk]

I am clearly not one of the bright ones, because I can think of several possibilities for what comes next, but.........

 

<snip>

 

So I opt for:..."but the 4♠ bid was made after much thought.."

My learned friend from Canada is definitely one of the bright ones.

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sqj1097hj5dajca1096&s=sak4hak3d86ckqj72]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

North was in the tank for almost 5 minutes before he bid 4♠, and even playing with screens there was no doubt as to who broke the tempo. The auction proceeded:

 

4♠ - 5♣

5♦ - 5NT*

6♠ - 7♣**

7♠ - pass

 

* Key Card ask

** Choice of grands in case your spades are Qxxxx

 

The TD ruled that South had not taken advantage of the UI, because the 5-level would be safe opposite a responder who had shown slam interest (4♣). South had plenty extras.

 

However, the Appeals Committee overruled:

 

"The break of tempo had implied that it was correct to bid rather than pass 4♠. Consequently, South's 5♣ bid is not legal".

 

Result adjusted to 4♠ making 13 tricks. 7♠ was bid and made in the other room, so 17 IMPs to the non-offending side.

 

Curiously, the match ended 151-151 after 64 boards. Now what? Team B had a carryover of 2 IMPs from the round-robin (included in the final score), so Team A had won the match on the day and was declared winners according to the rules and regulations.

 

Team A was the offending side in this case, but here we go again: all is well that ends well. They could only just afford the loss of 17 IMPs on the board!

 

Roland

[Finch]

Forgetting partner's actual hand for the moment, I'd love all those who say 'partner has denied a diamond control with 4S' to tell me how much they enjoy playing dodgy 5-level contracts when they have a diamond control but don't have 11 tricks.

 

I don't even have to change the hand very much to get there: something such as

 

Jxxxx

QJx

Kx

Axx

 

opposite

 

Axx

AKx

xx

KQJxx

[Kalvan14]

Forgetting partner's actual hand for the moment, I'd love all those who say 'partner has denied a diamond control with 4S' to tell me how much they enjoy playing dodgy 5-level contracts when they have a diamond control but don't have 11 tricks.

 

I don't even have to change the hand very much to get there: something such as

 

Jxxxx

QJx

Kx

Axx

 

opposite

 

Axx

AKx

xx

KQJxx

Does this mean that you agree with N's bid?

With the real hand, I have even more problems in understanding 4♠.

And with the hand you suggest, Frances, maybe it is better to bid 4♠ over 3♠

[Finch]

Does this mean that you agree with N's bid?

No.

[Codo]

Forgetting partner's actual hand for the moment, I'd love all those who say 'partner has denied a diamond control with 4S' to tell me how much they enjoy playing dodgy 5-level contracts when they have a diamond control but don't have 11 tricks.

 

I don't even have to change the hand very much to get there: something such as

 

Jxxxx

QJx

Kx

Axx

 

opposite

 

Axx

AKx

xx

KQJxx

Hi Frances,

 

I guess yours and Rolands Dialogue in the bidding had been:

 

1♣ !I have 15+ HCPS) 1♠ (1 Have 8+ HCPS and 5+ Spades

3♠I have 3 Spades 4♣ (I have more then 8 HCPS and a control)

4 ♥ I have Heart Control 4 ♠ Do you have minimum? I may have or have not a diamond control but no slam without a max.

5 ♣ I have extras...

rest is easy

 

my dialogue had been:

1♣ I have 15+ HCPS) 1♠ (1 Have 8+ HCPS and 5+ Spades

3♠I have 3 Sp. + extras (else 4 ♠) 4♣ (Then I have SI and control in clubs)

4 ♥ I have Heart Control, nothing in Diamond 4 NT Keycards?

 

rest is easy.

 

So even without Ser. 3 NT the opener had showed enough to reach a slam without any problem.

With this tool, this hand is too easy to talk about.

 

If I understood you correct, you prefer opener to bid 3 ♠ with "any hand" and have to make a (easy) guess at the 5. level. I prefer to give more information into the raise and have no guess at the 5. level. (Of course, there are other hands, where responder won`t like my 4 Spade bid and has to make a guess at a high level then.

[Walddk]

Hi Frances,

 

I guess yours and Rolands Dialogue in the bidding had been:

 

1♣ !I have 15+ HCPS) 1♠ (1 Have 8+ HCPS and 5+ Spades

3♠I have 3 Spades 4♣ (I have more then 8 HCPS and a control)

4 ♥ I have Heart Control 4 ♠ Do you have minimum? I may have or have not a diamond control but no slam without a max.

5 ♣ I have extras...

rest is easy

Ceratinly not as far as I am concerned. I would not have bid 4♠ with the North hand, and I suspect Frances is on the same wavelength. Maybe a new mixed partnership in the making (if Jeffrey approves) :)

 

Roland

[mr1303]

This is one thing that I've noticed that a lot of players do, and it drives me insane when sitting opposite me. They start off making a cue-bid, and then when partner reciprocates, they sign off because they feel that their cue-bid was an over-bid in the process. Partner, holding two low (or equivalent) in the suit that they bypassed, decides that they're off the first two tricks and so passes, missing a good cold slam.

 

If you're unsure about whether or not you're worth a cue-bid, don't make one in the first place. If you're worth one in the first place, you have to follow through.

[cherdano]

Like Frances, I disagree with all those who think a 5♦ cue-bid is mandatory even with a minimum hand thus far. IMO, it is a lot easier to guess controls when we know how good partner thinks he is for slam, than to guess about his overall strength when we know his controls...

 

I also disagree with Codo that 3♠ should show slam interest. There is a good reason fast arrival has become out of fashion opposite an unlimited partner.

 

Arend