where was mistake?

[olegru]

[hv=d=n&v=n&w=sq87652h5d98cq1074&e=sk1094ha976dcakj53]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Team match.

Same bidding from both tables

 

North.............East............South..............West

3♦............dbl..............pass................3♠

pass............4♠............5♦..............pass

pass.............dbl..............pass................pass

pass

 

Ruff wasn't found - 550 for NS

 

6♠ easy 12 tricks.

 

Any comments?

[hatchett]

I would bid 4♠ with the west cards, which should lead to east finding a spade slam.

 

East is not strong enough to bid 4♦ over 3♠

 

West has an obvious 5♠ call, after east doubles 5♦ and has made a free raise to 4♠ with huge playing strength and zippo defence.

 

In fact west had two chances to bid 5♠

 

I give west 100% of the blame

[mikeh]

I agree that west should bid 4♠, not 3.

 

East should not cue 4♦ either initially or later. Initially, most would play that 4♦ is a powerful two-suiter.

 

After West's 3♠, East has a nice hand but can hardly be seriously thinking of slam.

 

He needs a lot of cover cards and a decent trump suit, especially as South's non-raise (I wonder where he found the pass?) leads to the mistaken inference that East has ♦ length and may be on a weak, short(ish) ♠ suit.

 

Sure, 4♦ doesn't force beyond game, and it is not clear that East would get into too much trouble, but I'd like one more Queen to make the move.

 

On the other hand, west's 4♠ reveals a lack of understanding (temporary or otherwise) of playing strength as opposed to counting points.

[akhare]

Inability to respond to TOX should be a topic in its own right. The general pattern is that responder always underbids and the doubler overbids, thereby somehow restoring parity.

 

In this case, West's philosophy notwitstanding, 4♠ seems to be pretty clear cuit...

 

Atul

[P_Marlowe]

I would bid 4♠ with the west cards, which should lead to east finding a spade slam.

 

East is not strong enough to bid 4♦ over 3♠

 

West has an obvious 5♠ call, after east doubles 5♦ and  has made a free raise to 4♠ with huge playing strength and zippo defence.

 

In fact west had two chances to bid 5♠

 

I give west 100% of the blame

Hi,

 

Did West promis any defence against

5D? No, his 3S bid may be an underbid,

but it certainly does not promise any defence

against 5D.

 

If he bids 5S, and 5S goes -1, while 5D

would be -2, any suggestion, how the

arguements would go?

The dbl by East could be passed on a

strong bal. hand without a diamond

stopper.

Especially, if you take the weird bidding

by South into account.

 

Should I start with the phrase "the 5 level

belongs to the opponents"?

 

Simply put, East should bid 5S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

Two points in response to intervening posts.

 

1. I disagree that the responder to a takeout double underbids and the doubler overbids. I accept that doubler, in a preempted auction such as this one, should assume that advancer has a non-zero hand: play advancer for 6-8 hcp, by all mens. But as a general rule, and subject to that qualification, advancer should bid his hand. 3♠ was a very, very weak choice for those cards.

 

2. However, the raise to 4♠ should logically create a forcing pass over 5♦. Thus West, by passing, was telling partner that he had some defence and also some offence, such that East should double on all semi-balanced hands and bid 5♠ on purely offensive holdings.

 

Now, both West and East erred. West doesn't have a forcing pass hand: his hand screams 5♠, and East, too, has a 5♠ pull, due to his void. He need no longer fear a short, mediocre trump fit because west should double 5♦ with, say Qxxx xxx xxx xxx. So if he were a similar hand with 4=4=1=4, then double decomes more attractive (and probably would lead to +300 losing to +450, but not a disaster).

[pbleighton]

West made two mistakes, first, by bidding 3S rather than 4, and then by passing, as mikeh says, dramatically miscommunicating his hand type. I think the pass is much worse - 3S is chicken but understandable.

 

Peter

[joshs]

[hv=d=n&v=n&w=sq87652h5d98cq1074&e=sk1094ha976dcakj53]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Team match.

Same bidding from both tables

 

North.............East............South..............West

3♦............dbl..............pass................3♠

pass............4♠............5♦..............pass

pass.............dbl..............pass................pass

pass

 

Ruff wasn't found - 550 for NS

 

6♠ easy 12 tricks.

 

Any comments?

Well the auction was fine until they xed 5D. The first x was automatic, west has a tweener between 3S and 4S. I think 3S will work best whenever partner has signficant extras, but poses a risk when partner has only slight extras. Here they have a greta mesh and slam is cold, but I would be happy to make my game.

4S was automatic. West made a forcing pass (he has 2 small diamonds (argues for defending) but lots of extra shape (argues for bidding on). East had no business xing 5D if west didn't want to.... Note: west probably x's 5D about 90% of the time when you hold that east hand, so when he doesn't....

[hatchett]

If he bids 5S, and 5S goes -1, while 5D

would be -2, any suggestion, how the

arguements would go?

 

West has grossly mis-evaluated his hand. After his partner raises to 4♠ he has a clear 5♠ call over 5♦.

[Kalvan14]

The main issue is 3♠ rather than 4♠ by W. Once he failed to communicate his hand (very good from for attacking, and very poor for defending), he was unable to recover. Going with Mollo, W was certainly Walter the walrus :)

I've more sympathy for E: his hand is trong, but he need a fit, and a lot of coverings. If W has a weakish balanced hand the 5-level is certainly unsafe.

 

The best player at the table must be S, without doubt. Even without seeing his hand, I am ready to praise his first pass over the X, and the subsequent "sacrifice" in 5♦. At equal vulnerability (and possibly with some vales in his hand - certainly hearts values) it is much more sensible to see if the oppos manage to hang themselves on their own (or maybe end up playing in hearts). There is always time to put in a 5♦ bid. Well done.

[akhare]

Two points in response to intervening posts.

 

1. I disagree that the responder to a takeout double underbids and the doubler overbids.

I don't know if my post was clear enough, but I was talking about I have seen on BBO in general (and to some extent in real life too).

 

Jumps in response to a TOX holding say 8-10 points and an appropriate hand are rare and in many cases doubler makes another free bid (even w/o a bare minimum hand and not playing equal level conversion or anything of that sort).

 

Most opponents (many of them "experts" mind you) express incredulity when we point out that both responder's and doubler's actions weren't particularly sound...

 

Atul

[Kalvan14]

Is it possible that the "experts" are self-proclaimed?

We are truly in the presence of a herd of walruses, who count points and percentages to the nth decimal point, and are completely devoid of judgment.