Rain Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 General Comments lusobrasil Welcome all and... lets start working -))lusobrasil The most important thing in a competition, I think, is the integrity of the event. lusobrasil What I mean is that the one that wins is the one that should win according to his results lusobrasil Not the one that was most lucky in TDs assignments. lusobrasil So, a TD should be as transparent as possible. lusobrasil Without being invisible of course Procedural Penalties/Difficulties directing at BBO lusobrasil BBO has a severe limitation on the software for running tournamentslusobrasil in the form of inability to give penaltieslusobrasil If you wish to give a penalty to a player you have currently to do it on the score of a board, thereby giving a plus to another pairlusobrasil This means that you break the integrity of the competition when you assign a penalty of some sort Example:lusobrasil Lets think about those "one trick penalty for not alerting"lusobrasil Board 1 4S=, Board 2 4S=... penalty in either board will mean 4S-1lusobrasil Which means something like 7-10 imps, depending on vulnlusobrasil Now Board 1 and Board 2 4S+1... Penalty would be then 1 IMP only...lusobrasil And someone would be collecting in one case 1 imp, other case 7 to 10 imps. lusobrasil 1) Any penalty should be proportional to the size of the crimelusobrasil 2) Extremely important---penalties should not benefit anybody else.lusobrasil So as much as possible penalties must be avoidedlusobrasil If BBO permits TDs to deduct points from a player/pair, then there would be no problem in gioving MP or IMP penalties...lusobrasil but in any case never "trick penalties"...lusobrasil Even in table bridge I tend not to penalize whenever possible...lusobrasil because we are in a tournament not to show how smart or brilliant we are,lusobrasil but to administer the tournament to the taste of the playerslusobrasil and according to the regulations in force, as much as possible lusobrasil So, the important thing to consider whenever we take any decision at a table is...lusobrasil "equity".lusobrasil Not justice, but equity. There are many cases when the laws of bridge seem unjustlusobrasil but justice is what the legislators care withlusobrasil TDs must do equity within the framework of the regulations and laws they have General comments on giving A+/A- scores lusobrasil About giving A+A- scoreslusobrasil The mark of a good director is to give as few possible av+av-lusobrasil On table bridge we only give those 60/40 or similar when no result can be obtained at a tablelusobrasil When there is a result at a table, and there has been any kind of problem that resulted in damage, we try to achieve equitylusobrasil by removing the damage... how do we do this? for example with a wrong explanatioin, assume the good explanation would be given to the opponents and NOT to the offending player that is astray, of course like if players were behind screens what would the players with the good explanation do? what would happen from the pn. (from then on) Only if you cant get to a final (adjusted) result should you say ok there is damage but I cant determine what is the final outcome and so I give 60 to the non offenders and 40 to the offenders AV+AV+.... never, or almost This is when there is no possible result but not by the fault of the players I would give that if for example a kib says to the table the final outcome before they start the bidding, or the play, or something like that ok? Something to remember when players call for TDs and seek appeals? lusobrasil TDs are not in a tournament to be smarter or idolatrated by playerslusobrasil They are in a tourney to administer it and be fair and polite to all.lusobrasil TDs should ALWAYS give players a chance to be polite too...lusobrasil but when a player is not, then the TD can act on an (almost) equivalent plan.lusobrasil If a TD is rude to you, you can always report him, and not play in his tourneyslusobrasil players have always their times of distresslusobrasil and it takes a lot from tds sometimes to put up with thatlusobrasil pleas,e when there are questions let them vanish before throweing more in the airlusobrasil It takes a lot from TDs, even emotionally.lusobrasil But a TD should remember also that a lot of timeslusobrasil a player is only wanting someone to "let it out"lusobrasil before resuming his normal ways.lusobrasil I was the td in charge of the transnationals at the estoril´bermuda, and lusobrasil after 20,000 boards played, there was no single appeal (and no match with more than 30 VPs awarded)lusobrasil why? there was a lot of luck therelusobrasil but also players a lot of times complained, wanted to appeal, etc. but they just wanted a chance to be listened.lusobrasil Always listen to players.lusobrasil Even if they say things you dont agree with, listen to themlusobrasil That is your job, too What laws to use when directing in BBO?lusobrasil Now... What laws?lusobrasil You all know, if you direct in table bridgelusobrasil that there is an international code of bridge with 90+ lawslusobrasil for online bridge there is a published version made by wbf in 1999, when the scene on online bridge was on its infancylusobrasil and these laws have severe shortcomingslusobrasil So we should follow the main bridge laws...Online Laws http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/laws/onlinelaws.pdfLive bridge laws http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/laws/Law01.htmlusobrasil lets stop a little for questions then Unfinished Boards in BBO lusobrasil About unfinished boardslusobrasil .... Principle of equity.lusobrasil The players have gone to some extent towards completing the boardlusobrasil We assume that they are not in a "1!c" only auctionlusobrasil but somewhere finishoing the auction or in the middle of the playlusobrasil We should ALWAYS get a result on those boardslusobrasil Take a look at the movielusobrasil see the probable outcomelusobrasil If you cant decide between 4H= and 4H-1 try to find who was the guilty one.lusobrasil and adjust against himlusobrasil if you cant find because they both blame each other lusobrasil then you are free to do 40/40... lusobrasil One detaillusobrasil Another shortcoming is that we cant see the frequencylusobrasil on a board during the tourneylusobrasil So it may even happen that both 4S= and 4S-1 are below 40%... in which case you would be giving a gift to one of the pairs...lusobrasil Beware...lusobrasil Maybe it will be changed in the future (uday, pleaseeeee)lusobrasil It is very helpful for a td to see the frequencies on a board when making these decisions lusobrasil One other detail...huffelen would be nice when BBO saves those boards that runs out of timelusobrasil Avoid adjusting in one way because you see as a whole that the hand is going that way.lusobrasil What matters is where the hand goes taking into account the bidding and the card play that happened up to the timelusobrasil I see too many times TDs saying "the normal result is this"lusobrasil when they should think "it is this, taking into account what happened up to now" Playing TDs? lusobrasil This brings an other important issuelusobrasil Playing TDs...lusobrasil It is a practice here, but it poisons the integrity of the competition....lusobrasil A playing TD cant make adjustements, cant see unfinished boards in time, cant get timely information from playerslusobrasil Even if they adjust in the end, the players will be gonelusobrasil and the competition will be meaningless most of the time because whenever someone is in trouble he just lets time run out...lusobrasil But for a minimally serious tourney... Please, dont drink and drive lusobrasil One other thinglusobrasil Do not be too light on judging damage just because of a wrong explanation (for example) What if TD doesn't respond to your protest immediately? purshi some time td doesnt repond to our protest ,then?lusobrasil you dont keep pressing the buttons...lusobrasil tds are sometimes extremely busylusobrasil and taking care of other tableslusobrasil Always note the nickname of one of the TDs and ask them in private a little later How many tables should a TD run to ensure a quality tourney? DrTodd Doing this sort of an analysis to restore equity can be time consuming. Do you have any thoughts on what an appropriate ratio of directors to players should be for online bridge?lusobrasil Dr Toddlusobrasil At most 25 tables per TD for a quality tourney A very good td can do a little more, but if there are 3-4 calls at a same time it takes a lot of discipline to sort all of them out What to do in the case if a partnership has no agreements? lusobrasil If there is no agreement lusobrasil the good explanation is "no agreement" lusobrasil West may be polite to say "there is no agreement but I mean this or that" lusobrasil but he is not required to do thatesperanza many times partnershipos are last min pick up...and ur p has no idea what u mean u tell ops what u mean ur p interprets different and u are now at disadvantage lusobrasil esperanza, that is a fact of life Psyches lusobrasil I got a question about psyches. lusobrasil psyches are a part of bridge.lusobrasil I would refer you to the WBF notes on psychs... They are very well written. Misclicks and Undoes esperanza if a player misclicks a bid what should he do if he meant to say " a club" and instead bid "a diamond"esperanza because ops will call director later when they see u had only 1 diamlusobrasil Misclicks...lusobrasil The organizer can start the tourney as "no undos"... in that case, nothing to be said or done, however siilly the misclick is. lusobrasil If the organizer starts as "undos allowed", importantlusobrasil The undo should not in any case be used to convey informationlusobrasil and they should not be allowed if they match a change of mindlusobrasil the undo should be only a slip of fingerlusobrasil and never a slip of mind. lusobrasil For example, a player opens a spade with 5sp and 5 clubs and then wants to change to 1C... no can dolusobrasil The playerslusobrasil when they have any doubts about allowing an undo, lusobrasil should call the TD that will allow it or not on a case by case basis- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Example hand:[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sk93hak1052d532ck7&w=s8h4dakj98cqj9832&e=sq6542hj963d10c1065&s=saj107hq87dq764ca4]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv] South opened 1♦West bid 2NT and alerted as UNNTNorth XALL PASS lusobrasil (SOUTH) is the opener, both passes up to now are fakelusobrasil 2NT is just explained as UNUSUALlusobrasil nothing else.lusobrasil Up to now, there is a misexplanation in the sense that unusual is !h + !c in this situation lusobrasil North and South got the wrong info on the hand... lusobrasil What is the correct agreement of the system of the players? lusobrasil Something to be investigated by the TD lusobrasil If the TDS cant get to a conclusion if it shows C+H or C+D (the lowest always), then he should assume wrong explanation lusobrasil The code states that a player is entitled to know the good explanation of the *system* and not of the cards of the players lusobrasil This "of the system" creates difficulties to many tds... Suppose a player opens a weak two in D when in fact he agreed to play multi... lusobrasil There is no infraction at all... lusobrasil the player simply misbid. lusobrasil What would constitute an infraction would be for example in live bridge lusobrasil for him to hear partner explain it as "weak two in D" and use that (unauthorized) information lusobrasil So on this example let´s assume the worst for EW Wrong explanlusobrasil (the good explanation of the syst would be D+C). lusobrasil And North will keep attacking D... assuming W was short there. At this point North had pretty much forfeited any lusobrasil right to redresslusobrasil At the first trick, it is clear to North that West has as much as 3 cards in one of his 5-card supposed suitslusobrasil So North should know by now that the explanation is not ok and can ask (directly, privately, not on public chat) lusobrasil something about the meaning of the bid.lusobrasil West simply thought "unusual" to be the lowest, and not the lowest unbids., West createdlusobrasil an involuntary infraction, but Northlusobrasil was not damaged because of the infraction, but simply because he stopped thinking...lusobrasil And we as TDs should not give players points for not thinking What if North is novice? Why does lusobrasil mean exactly? catsmew what if N is a novice?wgf_flame why should north be smart to avoid punishment ?lusobrasil If N is a novice, we can have some leewaylusobrasil But I think it will be good for a N novice to understand that he needs to think on the hands,,, and in this situation alsolusobrasil (novices should be able to count to 13)lusobrasil North doesnt need to be smart, we are in a bridge tournament, and players are playing bridsgelusobrasil not throwing random cardslusobrasil so if north is absent, throwing random cards, he can get a bad result with or without the infraction. The damage was self inflicted by North, not caused by West aljorge It is also rather lazy by west just to say "Unsual", especially when there can be doubts as to what it means? He should have said "!c and!d, minimum 5-5" or "could be 4-5" or ...aljorge whatever he/she plays?jillybean if North does ask W what 2nt means and recieve correct explanation,,what then,,call td?lusobrasil aljorge maybe it is. That is why I said we assume the worst for him. But the damage was not created by West, was self created by Nlusobrasil If the explanation is correct according to the system, nothing can do.lusobrasil If West corrects the explanation and N commits suicide nothing can dolusobrasil If N only asks after continuing D knowing W can have only 3 hearts nothing can dolusobrasil We should protect novice players somehow... but we should also instill in them the good principles of thinking, and I think this is quite easy in that matter Q&A about the example hand lusobrasil Players should explain the following waylusobrasil I as a player dont see ANY of my partners explanations, remarks, whateverlusobrasil For example, I open multi and my prd explains as Weak 2...lusobrasil My partner bids 2H (pass or correct) butlusobrasil i know my parrter is bidding 2H forcing because he thinks I have a weak two in Dlusobrasil If I have a normal pass over a 2H from p in reply to my multi, I should PASS lusobrasil because I can NOT know that my partner mistakenly explained... jillybean In this case, if north stops here and asks W to explain the 2nt bid,, what then, call td?lusobrasil jillylusobrasil If N stops and asks Westlusobrasil The damage Before the D playedlusobrasil (i mean, before playing the D2)?lusobrasil At this point... There is no damage now, N can get it rightlusobrasil Probably 4 down, something like thatlusobrasil At this point., score stands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Q&A about other concepts explained today silvia44 So mine questions is, when people not alert when you have made it clear to alert anything even when you are not sure, what then? lusobrasil silvia, if the no alert causes no damage, why should be opponent benefit from that? rwylee !h If pairs continuously refuse to alert/explain, or even announce their system? what should we do? penalty? what kind? or just remove them?echognome many countries have laws which have changed in regards to giving avg+/avg- type scores. should we avoid those as well?lusobrasil yes, I mean try to avoid some sort of automatic penalties for anything.lusobrasil I dont mean that if there is some damage that you should not do anything... You should. echognome since split scores are not possible, should we then use avg+/- as our approximation?fot ok warning would be good but as pointed out what if pair constantly fails to alert?lusobrasil WHen they refuse to explain... they explain.lusobrasil if they dont explain there are subs available aylaofclan what do you mean by "no possible result"lusobrasil I mean that players cant get to the end without having the board compromisedlusobrasil av+av- is +3 -3lusobrasil For example you see your cards and the kib says "7 is down"...lusobrasil And it is, because trumps are 2-0 with K offsidelusobrasil Then you cant allow the board to be played until the end so players cannot get a result MitchS what good is any online ruling without recourse to an appeals process ? lusobrasil If a TD is very good you will rarely need an appeallusobrasil And we are trying to make better TDslusobrasil If the decision is bad, the organizations should be able to provide some sort of referring comittee, namely in the $$ tournaments MishoVnBG Hi! Playing vs random players with my partner, I didnt receive alert about jump 2NT bid by opps after 1!d-(P)-1!h-(2NT)... When I asked about bid opp told me "I dont have any ...MishoVnBG agreements with partner, so you know exactly what he knows". Your comment please? lusobrasil If the opp said to you "we have no agreement", you take what you expect from bridge common sense lusobrasil I would take it as a black two suiter lusobrasil And call the TD lusobrasil (and ask privately for the TD to ask the other player the meaning of the bid before they talk at the table about it lusobrasil (so that TD can establish if that is probably true or not lusobrasil This is an important point lusobrasil When you go to a table, lusobrasil if needed ask them to stop playing and ask questions privately to players (and ask them to reply in private lusobrasil so that you dont make more info appear at the table than needed, and you can extract the information from players a.s.a.p. lusobrasil (before time passes...) lusobrasil Now at the real bridge table sometimes players cant go to full disclosure, or are tired or pressed. We agree they should... lusobrasil I am addressing what we should do when they dont. lusobrasil Never penalize them automatically, because a lot of times lusobrasil it is not the "un-full disclosure" that creates the damage, but something else deniseb in sayc there is no more alert only in 2/1 and others lusobrasil Why is there no more alert in sayc? Is it engraved in stone anywhere? -)lusobrasil I mean... Each sponsoring organization does whatever they want with the alert policy lusobrasil And the tourney follows the sponsoring organization´s request lusobrasil on that subject. lusobrasil Just dont say "in sayc there is no"... lusobrasil You should say "in these tourneys those conventions do not require alert". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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