Worth another call?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sth86dqjt4cakqj43]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 3♠*

3NT - ?[/hv]

*Splinter agreeing diamonds.

 

You are playing a natural based system where 2/1s are not GF.

 

What is your call over partner's 3NT?

[Free]

is 3NT something special, or just a double stopper ♠?

[Echognome]

3NT was presumably to play. Nothing special.

[mike777]

4H rkc now. I assume p does not open on junk or rebid a random 4 card D suit.

If partner has:

AKx...Axxxx...xxxxx...void we can get out in 5D.

[Guest Jlall]

If I'm playing with a pard I trust I'll pass. Many hands make 3N where 5m has no play.

[pbleighton]

I think pd has shown me a 3541 minimum, with values in spades and a diamond suit which isn't that good. He has declined the slam invitation.

 

This doesn't look so good, in spite of my club suit, and if we are not going to slam, I would rather play in 3NT than 5D.

 

It's close, though, and I wouldn't blame someone for pushing on - I might myself if I was in a frisky mood.

 

Peter

[mike777]

geez you guys must really expect p to open and then rebid 2d on almost nothing :P. I will grant 3nt may make and 5d goes down but that must really be some rare hands. Partner cannot have 4 tiny d on this bidding and all the hcp in hearts and spades.

[hatchett]

Pass, I would expect partner to have soft values in ♠ and a double stop something like KQT. I have no reason to move.

[han]

I'll once again risk being shot by saying that this is clear. Pass is clear. :P

[Walddk]

Pass. Partner has a lot of wasted values in spades, and he could have jumped to 4NT to show extras. He did not.

 

By the way, this must be the hand where you, in another thread, asked us to lead against a diamond slam. I can picture what happens if you don't cash ♥A on lead. A heart loser will go away on ♠K most likely.

 

Roland

[pbleighton]

"geez you guys must really expect p to open and then rebid 2d on almost nothing"

 

KQ10-AJxxx-Kxxx-x

 

Also, pd has rejected your slam invitation. You should use this information, and trust pd. Your hand is good, but not THAT good.

 

Peter

[mike777]

geez 5D looks fine, do you really expect a heart lead on this auction? As I said you can come up with hands where 3nt makes and 5D goes down but they are going to be rare, very rare. Of course even with this hand 3nt can go down on a heart lead but......

Maybe you can make 6D on a non heart lead with many other hands?

 

Btw of course playing very sound openings you can still pass this 13 hcp hand but then who plays that. :P

[pbleighton]

"Btw of course playing very sound openings you can still pass this 13 hcp hand but then who plays that."

 

Btw of course playing a forcing pass system you can still pass this 13 hcp hand but then who plays that. :P

 

Peter

[jdeegan]

:P Pass. It's easy to fall in love with this hand, but I think it is sometimes worth reverting to a beginner's analysis just to see what ballpark we are playing in. As a dummy in diamonds, my hand is worth three points for the singleton spade, one point (maybe) for the doublton heart, three points in diamonds, and nine points in clubs. This is a total of sixteen 'dummy' points. Does this make a slam opposite partner's denial of slam and choice of 3NT KNOWING ABOUT MY STIFF SPADE. Naaaaaaah!

 

Is he going to hold:

 

AJ10

K9872

AK32

5

 

this 15 HCP beauty, consitent with pard's bidding, does give us odds on to make six diamonds. Do I really want to bet this is pard's hand???

[awm]

On the majority of hands, both 3NT and 5♦ will make. However, it's hard for me to picture a hand where partner signs off and 6♦ is really more than on a finesse. Clearly partner has fairly minimum values and something wasted in spades. We need partner to hold at least three controls to have a real shot at slam, and even then a heart lead may beat it. If partner has something like KQx of spade, then he's going to need ♦AK and also the ♥A which is way more than partner can hold. On the other hand nothing stops partner from holding:

 

KQx

KQJxx

Kxxx

x

 

Most of us open this hand, and it's off three aces.

 

I'll pass 3NT.

[Free]

In that case: pass!

[han]

It occured to me later that partner really expects us to have 1-2-4-6 shape (at most 1 spade, 2 hearts, and longer clubs than diamonds) . Of course, partner doesn't know that we have solid clubs, but we have painted a fairly accurate picture of our hand. I really see no reason to overrule partner's decision.

[pbleighton]

"I really see no reason to overrule partner's decision."

 

I think that's the key here. If you push forward and go down, while 3NT makes, you have inflicted some damage on the partnership. Now, I've inflicted some partnership damage in my time, but in this case the odds-against slam looks to be not worth it.

 

Peter

[Kalvan14]

Pass, WTP? S has already bid his hand quite exhaustively

[Echognome]

Thanks for all your responses. I posted this hand as a bidding problem, but it was actually a UI problem. The hands and bidding were:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sa94hqjt92da932c9&s=sth86dqjt4cakqj43]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 3♠

3NT - 4♦

4♠ - 4NT

5♥ - 6♦

All Pass[/hv]

 

The issue here was that North failed to alert South's 3♠ bid. Then when South went on over 3NT and I saw dummy, I thought he had taken advantage of the UI. On top of that, partner lead a club (see Another Slam Lead thread in interesting bridge hands forum). Declarer wrapped up 13 tricks and a 13 imp loss for us. We suggested to teammates that we might need a ruling on this. Our teammates said they weren't interested and that 4♦ was "automatic". Sometimes you feel like you have 7 opps. :)

[Kalvan14]

The problem is that 3♠ cannot be natural, otherwise W would have 15 cards (6 clubs, 4 diamonds, and 5 spades).

IMHO, W cannot go on after 3N, unless there is a complete mistrust in E capacity to make a decision; the possible (likely) UI comes on top of this.

Did you ask the meaning of 3♠ before leading?

[Codo]

My pd had opened 1 ♥ and rebidded 2 ♦ and 3 NT with something like:

Akx, Axxxx,KTxx,x and 6 Diamond is laydown.

So this hand does not proof anything, like any other hand, that was mentioned

here....

 

FOr aslam, I will surely have enough tricks, but I am not sure about the controls.

So, there is a simple solution: Bid 4 ♦as RKCB or 4 ♥ as kickback and stop in 4 NT, if the answer is not sufficent for a slam.

 

And if Pd cannot make 4 NT with your hand, he surely needs a very bad hand.

[han]

I absolutely agree with you Matt. 4D is an absurd call in my opinion. Even if you'd want to bid again over 3NT, you'd bid 4C, not 4D. There can only be 2 reasons why someone would bid 4D: (1) the 4D bidder is a very weak bridge player, or (2) the 4D bidder is afraid that partner didn't understand the splinter.

 

So it seems like your opponents definitely used the UI.

 

It is sad that your teammates didn't see this.

[Codo]

So I must be in camp Nr. 1, because I always believe in Pds abilities.

 

But for all of you, who just pass 3 NT:

You showed a lot of hands consistent with the bidding, which will fail to make slam, but you did not show many hand, which can make exactly 3 NT and not 4 (of course there are some..)

 

So im my (single) opinion passing 3 NT is just showing insufficent slam bidding toools for the minors :-)

 

To the given hand: 3 NT was silly and surely a misunderstanding of 3 Spade and it is absolutely possible, that 4 Diamond was influenced by the failure to alert.

This is a very easy and clear TD descission, even for me, who was not passing 3 NT.

3NT should be the final contract and scored for 10 tricks. (you cannot get 6 Diamond-1)

[han]

I agree with Codo that 3NT-4C-4NT-pass is not an unreasonable follow-up.