1M p 4M

[42]

Hi!

Playing 5crd majors, we recently had a discussion about what a jump to 4M promises exactly (you play for fitshowing --> 3♣=9-11 with 4(+) trumps, 2♣/♦=gf+possible fit, 2NT= 10-11 with 3 trumps or VERY strong, 3M = preemptive, 4M = preemptive):

 

1. 1♥ (pass) 4♥

 

2. 1♠ (pass) 4♠

 

3. 1♥ (dbl) 4♥

 

4. 1♠ (dbl) 4♠

 

What is the highest limit for HCPs?

Does the vulnarability change the ranges?

What distribution besides 5 trumps do you expect the 4-bidder to have?

What do you bid after 1♥ (pass) with:

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=s42hkj97xd98xca8x]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Thx :P

Edited March 10, 2006 by 42

[Guest Jlall]

You said you're playing bergen, does that mean you use 1M p 4D as a good 1-4? I think that is bergen. Anyways, for a 1M p 4M bid I wouldn't expect much in the way of high cards, and I would expect a bit of shape. Vulnerability matters.

 

At any vulnerability I would bid 4S when my partner opened 1S with xxxxx ---- xxxxx xxx. I had a casual partner recently bid 4H over my 1H bid with something like Ax Jxxxx xx KQTx. To me that is too strong, and is a 2N (jacoby bid).

 

After 1M X, I think there is a much wider range of hands that can bid 4M. I used to not believe in that theory, but it seems to be a big winner to give up on stopping short of game and hindering slam auctions to try and pressure the opponents with a hand like xxx KQxxx Ax xxx after 1H X. I would just give a limit raise with this hand after 1H p.

 

Your example hand is very similar, and I would give a limit raise after 1H p but bid 4H after 1H X.

[Echognome]

I had a casual partner recently bid 4H over my 1H bid with something like Ax Jxxxx xx KQTx.

Agreed. But 2NT would not lead to the opponents doubling 4♥ and it making now would it? :P

[Guest Jlall]

LOL, I forgot that was you.

[Echognome]

Oops. I probably shouldn't have reminded you. Also, I have no justification for the bid.

 

I actually would prefer a 3NT bid on the hand showing "a good 4♥ bid" if that is available. But it would have to be an agreed part of your system.

[joshs]

Hi!

Playing 5crd majors, we recently had a discussion about what a jump to 4M promises exactly (you play for fitshowing --> Bergen, 2♣/♦=gf+possible fit, 2NT= 10-11 or VERY strong, 3M = preemptive):

 

1. 1♥ (pass) 4♥

 

2. 1♠ (pass) 4♠

 

3. 1♥ (dbl) 4♥

 

4. 1♠ (dbl) 4♠

 

What is the highest limit for HCPs?

Does the vulnarability change the ranges?

What distribution besides 5 trumps do you expect the 4-bidder to have?

What do you bid after 1♥ (pass) with:

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=s42hkj97xd98xca8x]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Thx :)

The upper limit is about 9/10 HCP but its good to have an alternate call available for the 8-10 HCP hands. The lower limit is 0 if you have some shape. After they x, you should be more inclined to pressure them to the LAW limit, and bid game on some hands that you might only make a limit raise with, but are tweeners in terms of offense (some 5332 9 counts with xx or xxx in the other major).

 

Your example hand: xx KJxxx 98x A8x is a limit raise if they stay silent, but the decision is much close if they x 1H whether to bid 2N or 4H. I do think its there hand if partner doesn't have any extras, so its all about tactics.

[42]

I wasn't very proper in describing my system (was in a hurry and doing 3 things at the same time as usually because my day is always much too short...). I edited the original posting and marked it blue, but that doesn't really change the subject, or? Sorry anyways!!!

With the posted hand I felt I had a problem and decided to bid 3♣= 9-11 with 4 trumps, which comes closer to the hand than anything else imo. My immediate feeling ( :) ) was to jump directly to 4♥. Now, after 3♣, my LHO found a 3♠ bid and they ended in 4♠-1 while we had 4♥. LHO said afterwards that he wouldn't have been bidding after an immediate 4♥ :( So it is always also that tactical move which lets grow grey hairs...

My partner voted for 2♥ with my hand = 6-9. I still don't like that (sorry p ♥!).

The interesting question for sequences like the aboves is perhaps: is slam an option? We open 1♣ with 18+, so p is limited to 17. My hand is nice with 2 keycards, therefore I decided that slam MIGHT be on, it is too strong for 4♥. If I would be sure that slam never is on (never say never...) I jump to 4M? Is my thinking correct?

Thx again :)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you gave the answer yourself: 4M is preemptive.

You bid it, to shut out the opponents, because you think,

4M is the most likely contract, the price you are paying is,

that sometimes you are going down, and sometimes you are

making +2.

 

The vul. plays a role, green vs. red, you wont have lots besides

trumps, red vs. green it is different, partner can still dream that

you may hold the controlls he requires to make 6.

 

After a takeout dbl, you are probably a bit weaker, partner needs

always to remember, that there are only 40HCP in the deck.

 

With your given hand, I would bid 3H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

My partner voted for 2♥ with my hand = 6-9. I still don't like that (sorry p ♥!).

In other words, you should treat this hand similar to a 5/6 count

with 4-3-3-3 shape?

Or do you play the single raise as constructive?

If you do, the hand would be perfect, if not, well you have 5

trumps and 3 controls, i.e. he cant be serious.

 

I voted for 3H, because of the LTC.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[42]

I voted for 3H, because of the LTC.

3♥ is clearly preemptive and weak in our system since we have 2NT and 3♣ as invitation with 3 or 4 trumps. I can stand the 3-level and want to tell p that I am better than weak with an A and trump KJxxx.

The question was only if a 4♥ bid is always really weak and preemptive or if it is better to say that 4♥ is to play with a variable range of points when responder is convinced that a slam is out.

[P_Marlowe]

I voted for 3H, because of the LTC.

3♥ is clearly preemptive and weak in our system since we have 2NT and 3♣ as invitation with 3 or 4 trumps. I can stand the 3-level and want to tell p that I am better than weak with an A and trump KJxxx.

The question was only if a 4♥ bid is always really weak and preemptive or if it is better to say that 4♥ is to play with a variable range of points when responder is convinced that a slam is out.

Hi,

 

weak / preemptive does not mean garbage,

there will always be hands, which are short

below an invitation, this will be espescially

the case red vs. green.

 

If you think the hand is to strong to bid 3H,

than 3C, the difference between 2NT and 3CL

are the number of trumps you are holding as

support.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: To answer your question, how to explain 4M:

4M is to play.

[cherdano]

I also find these kinds of hands difficult to handle. I don't like the raise to 4M with 5332, although I suppose with the doubleton being in spades, there is a stronger case for it. Also, this hand could belong in 3♥, 4♥ or 6♥ - I don't think your limited opening system precludes a slam on this hand, unless you upgrade distributional hands to 1♣. So I would take the scientific approach like you did.

 

I think you were unlucky, btw. I don't think it is always easier to bid 3♠ over 3♣ than to bid 4♠ over 4♥.

 

Arend

 

P.S.: Caren, who allowed you to post in this forum???

[cherdano]

With your given hand, I would bid 3H.

Sorry, but I don't understand this bid at all. I would understand this if the alternatives were between 2♥, 3♥ and 4♥, but when you have 3♣ available to show a good 4-card raise, then that's certainly a better description for this hand than a weak 4-card raise!

 

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

With your given hand, I would bid 3H.

Sorry, but I don't understand this bid at all. I would understand this if the alternatives were between 2♥, 3♥ and 4♥, but when you have 3♣ available to show a good 4-card raise, then that's certainly a better description for this hand than a weak 4-card raise!

 

Arend

Hi,

 

thinking a bit longer, I tend to agree, that 3Cl is better

than 3H, but as I already said, hands, which make a

weak raise have a certain variance, and the upper

strength is the lower strength of a 3Cl call.

 

Take your pick.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: In my regular partnership, there are hands, i make

a limit raise, and my partner would force to game.