Acol

[MickyB]

The posts that led to this thread being started can be read here.

 

When I said Modern Acol, I meant the treating of balanced hands as balanced - you either open or rebid in NT unless you have 4 card support for partner, so bidding 2 suits promises an unbalanced hand.

 

Stone-age Acol used light 2/1s and a variable NT. If you open 1S on a 4=2=4=3 12 count and partner bids 2H on an 8 count, you can't afford to bid 2NT, so you need to be careful to make sure you had a rebid - any 4333 opened 1C, with two touching suits you would bid the higher then the lower, with clubs+hearts you would usually open 1C planning to rebid 1NT over 1S, with diamonds+spades you would usually open the suit below the doubleton planning on raising partner if he bid your 3 card suit. Embracing the weak NT made these issues go away.

 

Playing weak NT and 4 card majors, I dislike opening the minor from a 4432 - not because I am sure that it is worse than opening the major, but because I am sure that it is worse than playing weak NT and 5 card majors. A slight twist on Owen's words - leaving aside preemption, the advantage of 4 card majors is knowing that when partner opens a minor, he won't have a 4 card major unless he is unbalanced. The most obvious consequence of this is that responder can happily bid his 4 card suits up the line without fear of missing a major fit.

 

Like Frances and Jeffrey, I prefer 5 card majors, but 4 card majors with a strong NT is a perfectly viable system as it gives you the benefits of a strong NT without giving the opponents an easy ride when you have a weak balanced hand. In contrast, opening 4 card majors on a balanced 16 count tends to preempt your side more than the opponents, as the opponents are less likely to have anything on and you still have extra strength to show.

[Walddk]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

 

Roland

[joshs]

The posts that led to this thread being started can be read here.

 

When I said Modern Acol, I meant the treating of balanced hands as balanced - you either open or rebid in NT unless you have 4 card support for partner, so bidding 2 suits promises an unbalanced hand.

 

Stone-age Acol used light 2/1s and a variable NT. If you open 1S on a 4=2=4=3 12 count and partner bids 2H on an 8 count, you can't afford to bid 2NT, so you need to be careful to make sure you had a rebid - any 4333 opened 1C, with two touching suits you would bid the higher then the lower, with clubs+hearts you would usually open 1C planning to rebid 1NT over 1S, with diamonds+spades you would usually open the suit below the doubleton planning on raising partner if he bid your 3 card suit. Embracing the weak NT made these issues go away.

 

Playing weak NT and 4 card majors, I dislike opening the minor from a 4432 - not because I am sure that it is worse than opening the major, but because I am sure that it is worse than playing weak NT and 5 card majors. A slight twist on Owen's words - leaving aside preemption, the advantage of 4 card majors is knowing that when partner opens a minor, he won't have a 4 card major unless he is unbalanced. The most obvious consequence of this is that responder can happily bid his 4 card suits up the line without fear of missing a major fit.

 

Like Frances and Jeffrey, I prefer 5 card majors, but 4 card majors with a strong NT is a perfectly viable system as it gives you the benefits of a strong NT without giving the opponents an easy ride when you have a weak balanced hand. In contrast, opening 4 card majors on a balanced 16 count tends to preempt your side more than the opponents, as the opponents are less likely to have anything on and you still have extra strength to show.

I think there are pluses and minuses here. 4 card majors and a weak NT handles competative auctions much better than 4 card majors and a strong NT does, because you know that either partner has a 5 card suit, or extra values, so you can compete on 3 card support and moderate values (given the level) much more easily....

[hrothgar]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

Which proves what precisely?

 

I know any number of 5 card major players who disagree whether that 2!S rebid necessarily shows a 6th Spade.

 

We have no way to know why Hackett chose the 4!S rebid.

 

Maybe he preferred to blast to 4!S to minimize the information vailable to the opponents? Maybe he forgot system?

 

Labeling a system as flawed because you dislike a rebid could be deemed a somewhat selective/biased presentation

[Walddk]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

 

 

Labeling a system as flawed because you dislike a rebid could be deemed a somewhat selective/biased presentation

Where exactly did I write that I dislike the rebid? I asked questions. I don't expect you to contribute with anything constructive in this thread, but maybe others who are more familar with Acol than you and I are would care to tell.

 

Roland

[joshs]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

Which proves what precisely?

 

I know any number of 5 card major players who disagree whether that 2!S rebid necessarily shows a 6th Spade.

 

We have no way to know why Hackett chose the 4!S rebid.

 

Maybe he preferred to blast to 4!S to minimize the information vailable to the opponents? Maybe he forgot system?

 

Labeling a system as flawed because you dislike a rebid could be deemed a somewhat selective/biased presentation

I play 5 card majors and play that this bid does not guarantee a 6'th spade. I will not rebid 2N without at least a partial stopper in both unbids.

A hand like KQxxx AKx xxx xx is a 2S rebid for me.

[P_Marlowe]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

 

Roland

I would tend to agree, the strong NT opening is more

or less irrelevant.

More relevant is, how light do they open, and how light

is a 2/1?

In Acol 11 HCP with a 5 card spade suit, would be regular

opened 1S, planning to rebid 2S.

 

I did learn to play Acol 1996/97, but I stopped playing Acol

2000, living in an area where a SAYC system was dominat,

so take the above with a grain of salt.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[MickyB]

I think there are pluses and minuses here. 4 card majors and a weak NT handles competative auctions much better than 4 card majors and a strong NT does, because you know that either partner has a 5 card suit, or extra values, so you can compete on 3 card support and moderate values (given the level) much more easily....

Indeed, but weak NT and 5 card majors works just as well (actually, slightly better) in that regard, whereas strong NT and 4 card majors is very different to any of the other three combinations.

[MickyB]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

 

Roland

I don't know the answer to that question, but I'm sure either way would be playable without having to guess at whether partner has 5 or 6. Either one of them took a view or it was a misunderstanding. A 2NT rebid would have shown 11-13.

 

Btw, I don't consider their system to be Acol, as 2/1 GF is really not in keeping with the philosophy of bidding until you feel like passing! In Acol, I'd expect this sequence to not promise a 6th spade.

[joshs]

I think there are pluses and minuses here. 4 card majors and a weak NT handles competative auctions much better than 4 card majors and a strong NT does, because you know that either partner has a 5 card suit, or extra values, so you can compete on 3 card support and moderate values (given the level) much more easily....

Indeed, but weak NT and 5 card majors works just as well (actually, slightly better) in that regard, whereas strong NT and 4 card majors is very different to any of the other three combinations.

Weak NT and 4 card majors work better than weak NT and 5 card majors, when the opening bid is a minor. Which is one of the many reasons, I prefer to "generally" open a minor with 4M and 4m even if I have to bid:1C-1H-1N(15-17) suppressing my 4 card spade suit, as any self respecting KS player would do (although I don't mind opening a strong 4 card major here). Do all acol players open the major with 4 cards, a balanced hand, and a 4 card minor? The way I understood it, the styles really varied here.

[MickyB]

The minor opening is much better in weak+4 than weak+5 iff you open the major from a 4432. If you open the minor then it is only slightly better than in weak+5.

 

There are a lot of different styles - there are those who open the major, those who open the minor and rebid in NT, and those who open the minor and will bid two suits at the 1 level if they can. I don't think the last of those is common among good players.

[joshs]

The minor opening is much better in weak+4 than weak+5 iff you open the major from a 4432. If you open the minor then it is only slightly better than in weak+5.

 

There are a lot of different styles - there are those who open the major, those who open the minor and rebid in NT, and those who open the minor and will bid two suits at the 1 level if they can. I don't think the last of those is common among good players.

In my one real attempt to play "ACOL" in a real tournament (Australia's Summer Nationals) we opened 4 card suits, usually a minor with 4-4 unless the major had about 5 HCP more in it, with some discrecion to open 1C on 4333 or 3433 hands and a bad major or with a 17 count (tough guess about what to do over 1M-2M in our style, since we played SAYC style 2/1's (promises a rebid), so the raise can be 9). So many people do different things under the "ACOL" banner.

 

Personally, I still think: "ACOL- its not a system, its a street."

[Gerben42]

Personally, I still think: "ACOL- its not a system, its a street."

 

Right. And other than that, a big mess.

 

BTW the way I learned Acol you are NOT supposed to bid 1♠ 2♥ on less than a hand that forces to game opposite the 15 - 17 NT. Also with 4-4 major-minor, open the major. And you play a weak NT all the way otherwise you will be stuck for rebids with the weak NT hands.

 

I don't know what everyone else is doing, though.

[Cascade]

This is what I do and call it "Modified Acol" - I definitely wouldn't claim this is standard.

 

Overall we play Weak NT (Good 11-14) and 4-card Majors.

 

We almost never open a three-card minor.

 

We open the lower of two four-card suits but allow for some judgement if you have a poor suit that you do not want to bid.

 

This means we are often opening 1m with 15-17 and some 4432. We rebid 1NT with these hands unless a fit has been found. Bypassing the major works much better here in a weak NT system than in a strong NT system since responder is much more likely to continue to investigate the fit opposite a strong NT rebid than a weak NT rebid.

 

Our 1NT opening includes any five-card major. So for us 1♠ 2♣ 2♠ will guarantee six spades but 1♠ 2♦ 2♠ could be five spades in a hand too weak to rebid 3♣. When opener rebids the suit opened we have added a gadget to discover the length and texture of the suit and/or support for responder's suit. That is we play a 2NT rebid by responder as an ART GF. New suits are natural GF so 2NT tends to be slammish in opener's or responder's suit (no 2/1 GF) or checking for a six-card major on those sequences where this has not been shown.

 

Then we complicate things in 3rd and 4th seat by changing to a strong NT system but still we four-card majors.

 

Now with two four-card suits we tend to open the major. We are more likely though to start with a three-card minor when we have 4333 or 3433 and a bad suit.

[Finch]

Not so long ago we had a vugraph broadcast from the English Open Team Trials. Tony Waterlow-Paul Hackett bid:

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠

 

They arrived in a doomed 4♠ on a 5-2 fit instead of the cold 3NT. Now, the question is: does it not show 6 spades to rebid them over a 2♣ response? One would assume that Paul Hackett thought it showed 6 since he raised to 4♠ on a small doubleton.

 

Their basic system is 4-card majors with a strong NT. How many spades are you allowed to hold if you rebid 2NT (12-14 balanced)? The English commentators claimed that the rebid of 2♠ does not show more than 5.

 

Roland

As Jeffrey said at the time (though probably more politely): the fact that Hackett/Waterlow don't know how to bid doesn't mean the method is irredeemably flawed.

 

Acol/4CM is hardly the only system in the world where 1M-2m-2M does not show 6 cards in the major, even 1S-2C-2S. Playing a 4CM system, all it does is show a 5th card in the suit (one more than you've shown so far). But playing a 5CM system it's not uncommon to have a rebid of 2M as the 'nothing' bid. There are many 2/1 threads where the two schools debate the correct rebid on a 5332 minimum and there is always a vote for 2M, using 2NT to show something more specific.

[Walddk]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

 

Playing Acol, 4-card majors, 15-17 NT, what would a 2NT rebid show? Is there a consensus or does it depend on an individual agreement?

 

Roland

[whereagles]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

This has been studied long ago. When the two hands have no singletons, you play 3NT because the alternatives 4M or 5m are simply too rare and rate to be lousy contracts most of the time anyway.

 

It's a matter of statistics. By bidding 3NT you will fail 1% of the time, but be right 99%. Trying to cater for that magical 1% is likely to generate a misunderstanding more often than 1% of the time, so here the bid is 3NT.

[Walddk]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

This has been studied long ago. When the two hands have no singletons, you play 3NT because the alternatives 4M or 5m are simply too rare and rate to be lousy contracts most of the time anyway.

 

It's a matter of statistics. By bidding 3NT you will fail 1% of the time, but be right 99%. Trying to cater for that magical 1% is likely to generate a misunderstanding more often than 1% of the time, so here the bid is 3NT.

You don't know that opener doesn't have a singleton. He could well have 6 spades and 6133 or 6313 shape. How is he supposed to know that he must pull to 4♠ now?

 

3NT doesn't promise a spade fit, does it? For all opener knows, responder could be 0436 or 0346 or 0445. 3NT is a wish to play and opener should not pull unless he has an extreme hand.

 

With the hand I posted, how can responder know that 3NT is the spot? Right, he can't, and therefore 3NT is a silly bid in my opinion.

 

Roland

[Finch]

Yup, on the hand you quoted you really wish you were playing 2/1.

[whereagles]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

This has been studied long ago. When the two hands have no singletons, you play 3NT because the alternatives 4M or 5m are simply too rare and rate to be lousy contracts most of the time anyway.

 

It's a matter of statistics. By bidding 3NT you will fail 1% of the time, but be right 99%. Trying to cater for that magical 1% is likely to generate a misunderstanding more often than 1% of the time, so here the bid is 3NT.

You don't know that opener doesn't have a singleton. He could well have 6 spades and 6133 or 6313 shape. How is he supposed to know that he must pull to 4♠ now?

 

3NT doesn't promise a spade fit, does it? For all opener knows, responder could be 0436 or 0346 or 0445. 3NT is a wish to play and opener should not pull unless he has an extreme hand.

 

With the hand I posted, how can responder know that 3NT is the spot? Right, he can't, and therefore 3NT is a silly bid in my opinion.

 

Roland

Roland, why is it you always worry about that 5% where the practical bid doesn't work and forget the 95% of the hands where it does work, and gets you to the right contract? :)

 

3NT is a natural, simple, practical and descriptive bid. Sure, it doesn't guarantee 2-card spade support, but most of the time those 2 cards will be there because without them responder would have had the chance to bid something else (e.g. his shape).

 

So with a 0346 or 0445, responder could have tried 3♦. Just because there's no chance of a fit there, doesn't mean you can't keep describing the hand. It's the same thing with

 

1♦ 1NT

2♠

 

Responder can't have spades, but why can't opener simply bid out his shape if he's in the reverse zone?

[Walddk]

Roland, why is it you always worry about that 5% where the practical bid doesn't work and forget the 95% of the hands where it does work, and gets you to the right contract? :P

Because you and I have two different approaches to bidding. Your view is that guessing is the practical way of solving a problem like this; mine is that it is not. I want to find out if responder has 6 spades or not, rather than jumping into the pool without knowing if there is water in it ot not (3NT).

 

You can get lucky of course, but you can also get seriously injured if you try. I do not see 3NT as a practical bid. I think it's a very bad bid.

 

Roland

[badderzboy]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

 

Playing Acol, 4-card majors, 15-17 NT, what would a 2NT rebid show? Is there a consensus or does it depend on an individual agreement?

 

Roland

Playing Acol, if my partner bid 1♠ then I would simply rebid 3NT which promises a balanced 13-15 count and no 4 card major and implies 2♠ as I would temporize with 2 Minor with 3♠s looking for 5-3 fit.

 

If you don't bid this way you are stuffed by 1♠-2♣-2♠ and even a 2 red suit bid is damn scary if he is 5-4 which says pls lead the unbid suit ptr! to the opps!.

 

 

 

Steve

[whereagles]

Because you and I have two different approaches to bidding. Your view is that guessing is the practical way of solving a problem like this; mine is that it is not.

Bridge is a guessing game. Ignore this at your own risk :P

[Wackojack]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

 

Playing Acol, 4-card majors, 15-17 NT, what would a 2NT rebid show? Is there a consensus or does it depend on an individual agreement?

 

Roland

Playing Acol, I have a specific agreement with 1 partner that 1s-2c-2s-3c is forcing. I believe that in old fashioned Acol this passable, but to me it does not seem to make much sense. Playing Acol with a good partner even without specific agreement, if I has a weak spade rebiddble hand and partner rebid 3c, I would not dare to pass it, considering that partner was probably making a constructive bid, possibly even exploring slam possibilities. So with a a 5332 I would probably next bid 3nt. With a 5323 and a weak doubleton I would bid 4c and if partner next bid 4s I would pass.

[joshs]

OK, so 2♠ can be 5 (5332 pattern). Non-forcing I take it. This raises new questions: what is responder supposed to do with

 

♠ K4

♥ J76

♦ J92

♣ AKJ64

 

1. Hope that opener has 6 and bid the spade game?

2. Hope that opener has goodies in the red suits and bid 3NT?

3. Rebid 3♣ (which I assume is non-forcing)?

 

Playing Acol, 4-card majors, 15-17 NT, what would a 2NT rebid show? Is there a consensus or does it depend on an individual agreement?

 

Roland

I would rebid 3D. Of course nothing is perfect. A tactical underbid of 2N isn't totally rediculous (I prefer that to 3N). IF I had to guess what the right game was, I would bid 4S, but 3D is a reasonable attempt to get to 3N, since with 6 spades and a heart stop partner can bid 3H to flex back at me.