Poor attendance at LM game

[runewell]

A 299er game already exists. Everyone else plays in the regular game. What incentive does a LM game serve? Maybe some people like the idea of bidding undos or mid-chart conventions. But not very many, by the looks of it.

 

If the LM's are advised to play in this new game, who is supposed to play in the other game? NLM's with 300+ masterpoints? I just don't see three compelling segments here. :blink:

 

If you had a list of people's masterpoint holdings, you could hold an <1000 game and award some fraction of masterpoints between the 299er game and the open game, otherwise I have a hard time seeing what the LM game will accomplish.

 

I do appreciate the fact the Bridgebase wishes to offer us more choices, I'm just trying to help us understand why this new option hasn't been well-received thus far.

[inquiry]

The incentive for LM game is better competition, and people who know the rules of the game as opponents. The disincentive is most life masters have very little need for the online ACBL masterpoints. The trick is to convince them that the better competition is worth signing up for the game.

[Gerben42]

Don't want to scare of your potential customers but first you want a LM only game but almost everyone who has played for longer is a LM even the bad players. So why would this game be so great?

[sdoty]

I think it's fair to say that the majority of people eligible to play in the ACBL LM game:

 

- speak english

- are familiar with the alerts, etc expected in ACBL games

- are more likely to play an SAYC or 2/1 GF based system (and the LM pairs who don't are aware of what they need to alert and explain)

 

I can understand why this type of game would be attractive to some players. Everyone has the right to play whatever system they like, but people also have the right to prefer to play against familiar systems, against opponents whom they can communicate with. That doesn't make them narrow-minded or bad people: bridge is a recreational activity, and we all have different ideas about what constitutes an enjoyable session.

 

If I wanted to play a quiet session of relaxed bridge, I'd likely opt to play in the LM tourney. I find it extremely frustrating not to be able to ask questions and receive good answers from the ops, and it's harder to have those exchanges when there isn't a common language. I also find it frustrating when bids that I expect to be alerted aren't alerted. I don't blame other pairs for that, since I'm well aware that the standards are drastically different in different countries, but the fact remains that I'm less likely to encounter that sort of problem playing against pairs who've been in ACBL-land long enough to make LM.

 

In response to part of runewell's post: non ACBL-members provide a base of participants for the regular games, even if some (even most) of the ACBL members get divided between the 299er or the LM game. Since I don't play in online tournaments I can't speculate as to what % of the people who play in the ACBL tourneys are members/non-members, but participation isn't limited to members.

 

Susan

[Gerben42]

Hi Susan, I played a few of these normal ACBL tourneys and I had the feeling that these conditions were already there so I'm really not sure what would attract people to this special restricted tournament.

 

Perhaps these LM games could also allow "sensible" non-ACBLers?

 

Anyway are MP really that important in the US? Are there also open tournaments where a substantial amount of the entry fee is for cash prizes?

 

In my one experience with ACBL bridge I played a 2-session side game at the Washington nationals because 38 degrees (102 F) was too hot to go sightseeing. I had to pay $26 for this which I felt was quite a lot for just a side game, won and didn't get any prize in cash or otherwise (okay I got a pin with the tournament logo, probably worth $0.05 or less). Makes you wonder who got all the money... I am unlikely to do that again.

[sdoty]

Hi Susan, I played a few of these normal ACBL tourneys and I had the feeling that these conditions were already there so I'm really not sure what would attract people to this special restricted tournament.

Hey Gerben. You've played in more of the regular acbl-tourneys than I have, so you might be right. Still, the fact that non-ACBL members can participate in the normal ACBL tourneys increases the odds of running into a non-english speaking pair, or some inconsistencies regarding alerts. I don't know by how much, but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference were noticeable to pairs who've played in both types of event.

 

For me the issue has nothing to do with the masterpoints: for a lot of bridge players the number of masterpoints they have is more a reflection of how often they play than how good they are. It only takes 300 to get to LM ... diligent attendence is enough to get plenty of not-so-great players to LM eventually. Anyhow, when it comes to familiarity with what's expected in acbl-land, the attendence is what makes the bigger contribution.

 

As far as whether the standard is higher in the LM tourneys? It might be, but I personally wouldn't expect the LM requirement to make a huge difference on that front. That being said, I have no actual experience in the LM tourneys on which to base an informed opinion. I do, however, know that I've played against plenty of 'LMs by attrition' in f2f acbl games.

 

Susan

[uday]

The LM games issue *fewer* masterpoints than the open game, as per the ACBL-in-memphis (any form of restriction, even one with a lower bound, causes the MPs to be reduced).

 

I think the LM games are more relaxed, with far fewer issues that involve the TD. And the opps are acbl-experienced at least to the tune of 300+ MPs

 

 

Would I open it to non-lms ? Probably not without an excellent reason, altho the acbl-in-memphis does have an equivalent-mp policy. so if memphis were to tell us you had LM-equivalency....

[Echognome]

The LM games issue *fewer* masterpoints than the open game, as per the ACBL-in-memphis (any form of restriction, even one with a lower bound, causes the MPs to be reduced).

 

I think the LM games are more relaxed, with far fewer issues that involve the TD. And the opps are acbl-experienced at least to the tune of 300+ MPs

 

 

Would I open it to non-lms ? Probably not without an excellent reason, altho the acbl-in-memphis does have an equivalent-mp policy. so if memphis were to tell us you had LM-equivalency....

I'm not planning to play in any of the LM or ACBL games, but when I played in the states last summer, the TDs generally took your level on word assuming you knew what you were talking about. If you planned to move over more permanently, then you could have your MPs converted from one country to another. But for individual games, they basically asked us what our equivalent was and we told them. That seemed to work out just fine.

 

Of course assessing someone's bridge skill in person may be easier than online. You have more chance for dialogue.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't really see the issue here. Offering people more choices is a good thing. If you're worried it will take away people from the "main" ACBL game, if those people would prefer to play in a game with only LMs why should they be stopped so that you can have a bigger field? No one is forced to play in any of these events.

[Gerben42]

No I'm more worried that it will lead to a reduction of "open" events, or are these LM only tourneys planned at times where everyone outside of the Americas is asleep / working anyway?

[uday]

They currently run at 8PM and 10PM EST; i dont anticipate ever needing to reduce the # of open games bec. of the # of advanced games. We - bbo - the bridge word - have a lot more non-advanced players than advanced players.

[pigpenz]

yes the open game pretty much takes care of itself.

[Elianna]

Anyway are MP really that important in the US? Are there also open tournaments where a substantial amount of the entry fee is for cash prizes?

There is a Pro Bridge Tour (or there was) but it's not considered that prestigious. They have both open and limitted games, and while I've heard of a few people that play in them, you wouldn't find Meckwell in them. In fact, last I saw, all of the games were individual movements. This could have changed.

 

The only other money game I've heard of in/around LA is a private rubber one that attracts many of the top players in LA, but I don't believe that it is sanctioned, even though it's played in a club. I also doubt that it's an open game, I think that it's invitation only. Some of the other people my know more about it, or like games, as I was never interested.

 

Otherwise, the tournaments you hear people talking about don't pay any cash prizes.

[awm]

There aren't many ACBL-sanctioned games for cash prizes. Perhaps this is part of the reason bridge is more popular overseas than in the US, it's not clear. There are a few exceptions:

 

(1) Many clubs offer free games for the winners. Obviously this is not a substantial "cash prize" but it's better than nothing.

(2) Virtually all tournaments offer some sort of prizes. However, usually these are not cash (glasses or mugs are common for example). There are some exceptions (mid atlantic regional offers script for example, and Atlanta nationals gave gold dollars for section tops in national events) but I've never seen a cash award for regular acbl events with value exceeding the entry fee.

(3) Bridge pro tour events. When these started out they had $100 entry fee, and the prize for the winner could be as much as $5000. These both seem to have been reduced (to $20 per session and payout dependent on number of tables). All of these events (to my knowledge) are individuals, which is nice in that it tends to eliminate opportunities for cheating. While good players have certainly participated in bridge pro tour (notably Chris Compton and Adam Wildavsky), most of the top players prefer to play with clients (it's guaranteed money, better paying, if you're on a team you get to practice with your pro partner for a substantial fraction of the deals, and you play against better opponents).

(4) Various events where ACBL sponsors travel. Notable are the Grand National Teams, North American Pairs, Collegiate Teams, and various Team Trials. While in general winners are not given cash, plane tickets and hotel rooms can have substantial monetary value. <_<

[jdulmage]

Don't want to scare of your potential customers but first you want a LM only game but almost everyone who has played for longer is a LM even the bad players. So why would this game be so great?

That's statement is so blantantly false, it isn't even funny.

[awm]

While it's not that hard to become a life master, the LM requirement does rule out a lot of the really clueless people. Most life masters know:

 

(1) It's not standard for a double of a one or two-level suit opening to be penalty.

(2) When you're playing 15-17 notrump, and you have 15 points 4432, you open 1nt.

(3) You don't normally open 1♣ with 5-5 in the minors.

(4) Overcalling two of a minor when opponents open one of the same minor isn't normally natural.

(5) If you open one of a suit in first seat and partner makes a 2/1 bid in a new suit, you don't pass.

 

And so on, and so forth. This seems like pretty obvious stuff to some of us, but I've seen all this (and much worse) in the open acbl tourneys.

 

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say "LMs are good players" by most standards, but those who are bad players have at least played serious bridge long enough to have a clue about the basics.

[pigpenz]

i think its a matter of getting partners...people are afraid that they wont get partners if they really rate themselves low like novice etc. I have kibbed several of the LM games and what goes on there is alot better than what goes on in the open games....by far the moreinterstng game to watch is the hombase club :D CAuse it brings in a new element, WBF regulations...several tilmes i have thought what would i do against that artifical bid mainly cause you dont run into some of those bids since the ACBL tries to protect you against them

[keylime]

I have a few wonderings about the LM game.

 

1) Since Mid-Chart is permitted, if an asterisked item on that chart is used, is a defense being offered to the opps before hand?

 

2) Is it REALLY a "better quality" game, so to speak? <i.e. how much deviation from a base normal is there>

 

3) Besides the masterpoints, does it offer anything substantial?

 

Frankly, I think HomeBase is a far more comprehensive game with enhanced value than the LM game; just having access to BridgeBrowser to see my errors and strengths is far exceeding the fee I pay to play. I also strongly feel that the directors of HBC are actively engaged - at times watching the ACBL games it's almost a voluntary disconnect between director, player, and kib'er.

 

Between the two, I happily choose HBC - I have much more freedom to experiment, and I feel a lot more "involved".

[Guest Jlall]

Again, that's the great thing about BBO. They offer you many different choices, and you can pick what you want. Some like free tournaments, some like masterpoints, some like bridge browser, etc. I don't think doing away with LM pairs and thus limiting the users options makes sense though.

[Gerben42]

Still I'm surprised there wouldn't be a market for such games. Where I am now in Germany the normal set up is something like this:

 

$10 table fee per player, about 25 tables. This makes $1000 of which half is returned in prize money (the rest is of course to pay the rent and the director). Some tournaments have better entry fee to prize money ratios, some have worse. This basically depends on the level of the director, if special agreements have been made with the owner of the localities (for example who sells drinks or if people are supposed to take part in a dinner), and if the local club sponsors the tournament.

 

In short, tourneys gotta have prizes :P

[Gerben42]

Frankly, I think HomeBase is a far more comprehensive game with enhanced value than the LM game; just having access to BridgeBrowser to see my errors and strengths is far exceeding the fee I pay to play. I also strongly feel that the directors of HBC are actively engaged - at times watching the ACBL games it's almost a voluntary disconnect between director, player, and kib'er.

 

Between the two, I happily choose HBC - I have much more freedom to experiment, and I feel a lot more "involved".

 

I like this setup too, most non-ACBL players like myself find the rules more "normal" I guess. And around here every good pair has a defence against the most common occurrences and a "general defence" against uncommon ones and would rather throw the "suggested defences" into the trashcan.

 

I guess I've seen most of them and since you must always have a known suit (except for Multi), we rarely get to use the "general defence" anyway.

[keylime]

G-ster,

 

Many players around here in the Baltimore/DC area, feel the complex suggested defense for the Multi is a better one than the simplified one. Go figure. I personally like the Granovetter method.

[pigpenz]

What would be really be nice is to see the ACBL actually hold say a 3 day online sectional with seeding and everything, and run some publicity beforehand to make it a big event...thats what i would like to see online bridge go after. Its out there just for the taking....online sectionals and regionals....right now the online games our only short games but through in real two session events of 26 boards and charge the normal table fees and I think people would go for it.

[uday]

There are 2 reasons the acbl-in-memphis is shy of online games.

 

- Identity. Who knows who just pulled off that masterful double-squeeze? Was it Uday or Astro ?

 

- Cheating. Who know what uday is saying to his partner on the telephone?

 

 

IMO, the second issue - cheating - is the larger issue. I suspect that if we could roll out a cheatproof game the ACBL-in-memphis would at least allow us to experiment with sectionals.

 

I have some thoughts and some interesting input on this front and perhaps we'll take a stab at them after Money Bridge completes its rollout.

[pigpenz]

There are 2 reasons the acbl-in-memphis is shy of online games.

 

- Identity. Who knows who just pulled off that masterful double-squeeze? Was it Uday or Astro ?

 

- Cheating. Who know what uday is saying to his partner on the telephone?

 

 

IMO, the second issue - cheating - is the larger issue. I suspect that if we could roll out a cheatproof game the ACBL-in-memphis would at least allow us to experiment with sectionals.

 

I have some thoughts and some interesting input on this front and perhaps we'll take a stab at them after Money Bridge completes its rollout.

but even at real tournament people can still text message etc i assume, unless its a barometer where everyone plays the same hands at the same time. I think cheating will always be a small percentage problem at bridge wether live or online. I would think online the winners would speak for themselves. if there were a strong field like a regional i dont think we would see MA and PA Kettle winning events very often. And as far as who plays the hand or who you are playing against it would just be a matter of either using your real name associated with your ACBL player number. but i think that is where bridge willeventually have to go....it will sure beat the $100+ day hotel bills for sure.