alertable?

[tkass]

playing 1sp-4sp with:

 

kjxx

kxxx

xx

kqx

 

do u need to alert 4 sp?

[Guest Jlall]

If this is a possible hand systemically, I would say yes. Whenever I play strong club systems I alert the 4S bid as it may be based on this hand type.

[EricK]

Why should this be alerted?

 

You had ♠ support. You had the strength for game. You bid game.

[Miron]

I also don't see any reason for alerting 4♠. You want to play 4♠. The range of hands you want to play 4♠ can be very wide, especially in strong club systems. If this should be alerted then also 1♠-2♠ (can be also weaker or stronger or just medium).

[hotShot]

I count 12 HCP and 4♠, partner opened and you bid game. No reason to alert.

[Gerben42]

Depends on level.

 

Once your opponents have reached the level that they bid sensibly, i.e. not 4♠ on such a hand when facing a hardly limited opening bid, then yes.

 

It's under "bids your opponents might not understand".

[helene_t]

Since this is the Bridge-related Forum (not online specific) I tend to alert as little as possible to avoid crying wolf.

 

However, since 1♠-4♠ can't possibly be an artificial call (it is quite obvious that the alert must be based on usual agreements about the defensive values that such a call might be based on) I see no reason not to alert it. Unless

- Local rules or customs specifically tell you not to alert natural calls, or

- You are confident that opps know that you play a strong-club system and what consequences that has for the range of such calls

 

Playing online, you should certainly alert it

[Helmer]

Never

 

You have spades you have opening hand etc.

 

In Acol natural bid.

 

In Denmark it is NOT allowed to alert after the bid 3 NT.

[Free]

Why should you alert it? Ok, nobody expects a good player to bid this way, but it's still considered standard for some reason :ph34r:

 

Note: in f2f bridge, most authorities forbid any alerts for bids higher than 3NT.

[Miron]

Since this is the Bridge-related Forum (not online specific) I tend to alert as little as possible to avoid crying wolf.

 

However, since 1♠-4♠ can't possibly be an artificial call (it is quite obvious that the alert must be based on usual agreements about the defensive values that such a call might be based on) I see no reason not to alert it. Unless

- Local rules or customs specifically tell you not to alert natural calls, or

- You are confident that opps know that you play a strong-club system and what consequences that has for the range of such calls

 

Playing online, you should certainly alert it

Would you alert 1♠-2♠?

 

This thread is mainly for online bridge. Where are alerted bids above 3NT (except 4♣♦ opennings and ACBL delayed alerts)?

[Echognome]

The alerting rules for bids above 3NT must surely be for your 2nd bid onwards. I mean I'm asking this rather than asserting it, but would you have to alert, for example:

 

1♠ - 4♣ if it could show any of:

 

A void splinter

A singleton or void splinter limited or game force or better

A swiss raise

An ace showing GF raise

A super fit jump

A preempt

 

etc

 

I would guess you would have to alert most if not all of those bids.

 

As per the 1♠ - 4♠ in question, I would guess that one does NOT have to alert it, but should alert it if your opponents are not exactly clear about the system you play. I think Jack alerts such bids as "possibly preemptive." Although I think the alert should read "possibly has strength."

[Trinidad]

Where are alerted bids above 3NT (except 4♣♦ opennings and ACBL delayed alerts)?

If you wonder where you have to alert bids beyond 3NT then I can give you The Netherlands. There bids above 3NT are not alerted unless it is in the first round of the bidding, starting with the opening bid.

 

Thus, a Namyats 4♣/♦ needs to be alerted, but also a 1♠-(Pass)-4♣ splinter, as well as (1♦)-4♦ if it shows a freak major two suiter and (2♥ [weak])-4♣, if that shows clubs and spades (Leaping Michaels).

 

Rik

[paulg]

I think Gerben and Justin have this right.

 

In England all alerts are given whether the auction is above, below or at 3NT. This will change in August when I believe we move to:

 

No calls above 3NT are to be alerted except for:

(1) Artificial opening bids.

(2) Lead-directing passes, and

(3) Lead-directing doubles and redoubles that ask for the lead of a suit other than the suit doubled or redoubled..

 

This is different to the WBF rules which say:

 

If screens are not in use, do NOT alert the following:

 

1. All doubles.

2. Any no-trump bid which suggests a balanced or semi-balanced hand, or suggests a no-trump contract.

3. Any call at the four level or higher, with the exception of conventional calls on the first round of the auction.

 

Generally it is accepted that on-line play is similar to playing WITH screens, so alerts above 3NT are given.

 

p

[cherdano]

The alerting rules for bids above 3NT must surely be for your 2nd bid onwards. I mean I'm asking this rather than asserting it, but would you have to alert, for example:

 

1♠ - 4♣ if it could show any of:

 

A void splinter

A singleton or void splinter limited or game force or better

A swiss raise

An ace showing GF raise

A super fit jump

A preempt

 

etc

 

I would guess you would have to alert most if not all of those bids.

 

As per the 1♠ - 4♠ in question, I would guess that one does NOT have to alert it, but should alert it if your opponents are not exactly clear about the system you play. I think Jack alerts such bids as "possibly preemptive." Although I think the alert should read "possibly has strength."

Matt, how about following Luis' footsteps and betting that at least one of the meanings above is alertable in Germany? :ph34r:

 

It's more annoying that (3♥)-4♣* is not alertable, where *=non-leaping Michaels.

 

Arend

[inquiry]

Would you alert 1♠-2♠?

Well, yes, sometimes 1♠-2♠ requires an alert.

 

Let me start by if you play inverted minors where 1♦-2♦ is "forcing" and can be extremely strong, do you alert that? The answer is yes.

 

So let's return to 1♠-2♠, as a rule do you alert that? The answer is generally no. But some people play 1♠-2♠ as "constructive" showing good 8 to bad 11 points. These people should alert. I on the other hand frequently play 1♠-2♠ as three card support (specifically) and 0 to 7 hcp. And yes, when I play this style raise I alert it.

 

Not because it is natural, but because I have a specific agreement (can be very light and is never good hand) that my partner is aware of and my opponents might not be aware of.

[ArcLight]

I could be mistaken, but isn't 1M - 4M a weak bid, based on 5+ cards in the major, and shape? Or is this not standard? I thought with a hand of this strength (not using Jacoby 2NT) you would make a 2/1 response, then bid Spades. Or is this not correct?

[Gerben42]

I could be mistaken, but isn't 1M - 4M a weak bid, based on 5+ cards in the major, and shape?

 

In principle yes, but:

 

* Playing a limited opening system like Precision you can mix in strong hands like the example hand.

* Some time before I was born it was usual to play this auction to show hands like the example hand. Now we know that this wastes too much space.

* It seems that alert regulations seem to accomodate those who still play the system from long ago.

[kenberg]

I'm surprised that many are surprised this might require an alert. It may or may not be legally required, but alerting it has merit.

 

I have been playing for a while and when I hear this auction I know I should look at their card and see if they are playing some strong club system. Generally people don't bid 4S with the example hand if the 1S bidder could hold a nineteen count. He might do it, but most wouldn't. There are many situations like this. For example, if I am on lead against an auction that begins 1H-1NT I might look to see if they are playing Flannery. Even if they are not, my RHO might have skipped over his four card spade suit, but if they are playing F, then he routinely would. The point here is that the bidding has perhaps been influenced by agreements that have not explicitly surfaced in the auction. Another common situation is the auction 1C-1D-1NT. It's a natural auction and they want to play NT. But who is it that might hold an unbid major? Some play that the diamond bidder denies a major unless he has a hand strong enough to warrant a reverse. In that case, opener could be 4-4-2-3. Others do not play that way, in which case responder may have a four card major but opener, usually, will not. Unless the opponents tell you, there is no way to know which way they are doing things.

 

In all these cases, including the original post, you could argue that it is the defender's obligation to know enough about bridge to know what to look for and what questions to ask, or you could argue that the bidders should alert. I favor alerting.

 

Ken

[luke warm]

concerning ben's post, i also alert all major suit raises.. 2M shows 7-9 and 3 cards (uncontested)

 

as for ken's post, i agree there also.. i alert a 1D response or a 1M response.. as opener, i alert a 1nt rebid.. i feel that any agreement your partner knows about, the opponents should know

[jillybean]

Just a note before everyone stops alerting bids over 3nt!

 

The rule that says ‘don't alert of bids over 3nt’ applies in some real life jurisdictions.

I believe this rule is there to prevent a wake up call and misinformation being given to partner.

 

Under (some) tournament rules on BBO where bids are self-alerting, your partner can’t see the alert and therefore no chance of misinformation,

all artificial bids should be alerted. Check the tournament rules! B)

 

jb

[barmar]

Agreed. For instance, when I'm playing online, I always alert my RKCB responses.

[mikestar]

"The first round" is a misnomer in the ACBL--the delayed alert procedure applies to bids above 3NT beginning with opener's rebid, which could be as late as the last call of the second round (opener was fourth hand).

[pigpenz]

Would you alert 1♠-2♠?

Well, yes, sometimes 1♠-2♠ requires an alert.

 

Let me start by if you play inverted minors where 1♦-2♦ is "forcing" and can be extremely strong, do you alert that? The answer is yes.

 

So let's return to 1♠-2♠, as a rule do you alert that? The answer is generally no. But some people play 1♠-2♠ as "constructive" showing good 8 to bad 11 points. These people should alert. I on the other hand frequently play 1♠-2♠ as three card support (specifically) and 0 to 7 hcp. And yes, when I play this style raise I alert it.

 

Not because it is natural, but because I have a specific agreement (can be very light and is never good hand) that my partner is aware of and my opponents might not be aware of.

yes 1♠ pass 2♠ is alertable when contructive showing 8-10hcp now if you were to alert it when raising to 2♠ on 5hcp LOL there would be some trouble.

 

but having played against preciscion people for 30yrs i have never seen anyone alert 1♠ pass 4♠....except Justin B)

[joshs]

In the US, 1M-4M is an alert if it can be based on a non-traditional hand type. The traditional hand type (since the forcing raise was invented) is a semi-pre-empt, typically 5 card support and less than 10 HCP (sometimes 4 card support and extra shape like a void or a side 6 card suit).

 

In general when bids can be (systematically) made on hands that are very different in shape or in high cards than the usual meaning for the bid, its an alert. Now, you do need to know what the usual meaning is to have any hope working out if your agreement is alertable...

[EricK]

Personally I think that bidding 4S on a hand like this is fine even if you are not playing a strong club system. You have a balanced, aceless 12 count. How often is there going to be a slam? You will always bid game and any other approach runs the risk of directing the defense.