What is the "expert" treatment?

[kenrexford]

I have heard or read (I believe) that some theorists advocate slightly lesser values for 1NT openings in 1st/2nd seat (perhaps 14-16), but sound 15-17 for 3rd/4th seat. I have also heard a completely different approach, namely sound unless 3rd seat, where 14 is plausible.

 

Any theoreticians out there know the expert theory here?

 

The answer is relevant to whether and when to field-protect on a trashy 10-count (if you field-protect) by bidding 3NT to be par with the field. Conversely, I suppose, this dictates when a sound 15-count should accept.

 

This also assumes (1) MP's and (2) weak field (club game).

[Gerben42]

For the HCP frequencies in different seats look at the HCP statistics.

 

Not sure about this theory but I prefer 14 - 16 "all the way".

[hrothgar]

The short answer is that your opening structure in 3rd seat should complement your first seat opening style. Your opening strucutre in 4th seat should complement your second seat openings.

 

Personally I'm fond of very light initial action in first/second with a sound opening structure in 3rd/4th. Without some details regarding the rest of the system its difficult to provide any kind of answer...

[Kalvan14]

I'm personally fond of opening in 3rd/4th seat with 14 points, in particular without spades. I'd expect it is mostly a matter of style.

In the particular case, MP and weak field, I'd be in any case unwilling to go against the field. Why open something that the rest of the field will not do?

[kenrexford]

This question arose as another debate point in my recent game with a pro. The result was funny. He opened 3rd seat 1Nt with 14. I held a trashy 10, bid Stayman, heard 2D, and bid 3NT. When I put the hand down, I noted that my correct call is probably to pass but that I felt the need to field protect.

 

As it turned out, the 14-count opener killed that theory, in part. What happened in the field was a simple minor opening, followed by a 1NT rebid. My hand then invited (insane), and some went to game with the 14-count. Go figure!!!

[Kalvan14]

always the same pro?

[SteelWheel]

The heyday of the Bergen/Cohen partnership seems to me to be the genesis of the "modern" school in opening bids generally (at least in the US). At the time, people had already started shading their 1NT opening to 15-17 rather than 16-18, because they were opening most 12 counts, and did not want to have too wide-ranging of a 1NT rebid.

 

Bergen/Cohen pushed the envelope still further, opening most 11 counts, and even many of their 10 HCP hands. As a result, their 1NT opening was shaded still further, to the 14-16 range.

 

I recall playing against them a few times back then. Their 1NT open was 14-16 1st/2nd, and 15-17 in 3rd & 4th. Presumably, with their light opening strategy, they felt they had little to protect against, and therefore played relatively sound openings in those seats, hence the stronger NT open.

[paulg]

We play 14-16 in first/second but switch to 15-17 in third/fourth. The reason for this is that we open most balanced 11 counts, so the chances of game with a 14 HCP in 3rd seat is small compared to the danger of getting too high.

 

The Hackett clan (papa & the twins) use the same method.

 

Paul

[Free]

We open 11-14 in 1&2 seat, 13-16 in 3&4 seat. That however reflects our general opening style: light and agressive in 1&2 seat, solid in 3&4. It really depends if you want to use 1NT preemptively in 3rd seat or not.

 

When playing natural (which uses pretty solid in 1&2 and probable light action in 3rd seat) I also open 1NT lighter from time to time. It's just better to have some preemptiveness in 3rd. This has gained me swings in competition before, since opps didn't have constructive methods against strong NT :D

 

What works out better? I have no idea! :)

[Miron]

I usually play 11-14 all seats. The third seat is the most interresting:

• You take a lot of bidding space
  
• You'll get doubled by LHO very often
  

I open 12+ - 14+ with no fear, and 11- - 12- with good escape (two good 4 cards, 5 card). It is a bit adrenalin sport, but big minus is rare (and I like the angry look from LHO with 5♥ and 14 points :D ).

 

For the strong NT (this is the topic, I assume :) ):

I don't move the range on third seat (I don't bid NT 15-17 with 14 - of cource some exceptions, but these are really rare). Usually (In my experience) is NT on third seat played stronger (1&2nd 12-14, 3th 15-17) or with the same strength (12-14 or 15-17 all the time). I haven't met pair playing NT on 3th seat weaker then on 1st or 2nd (ok, same play in NV 12-14, in V 15-17, but this is a bit different problem).

[lowerline]

When both opponents have passed and you are looking at 12 points, you can expect partner to be in the range 7-11. That means it is relatively safe to open a weak NT in 4th, even when vul. In MPs this is a winnner IMHO.

 

A system that uses a weak NT range in 1st/2nd when not vul and always in 4th appeals to me...

[whereagles]

You can play 11-13 1NT or weaker on 3rd seat, but then there's probably no need to use invitational/GF methods after the opening. For instance,

 

pass 1NT

2♣

 

can be simply.. clubs, sign-off. The standard 12-14 weak 1NT borders on this as well, especially if you like to open light.

 

Of course, if you like the preemptive effect of 1NT you can even go as low as 9-11 in all seats :)

[MickyB]

In my opinion, it is good practice to open half-decent 4 card majors in 3rd+4th seat - you want to preempt, compete for the part-score and direct a lead. These hands should usually pass a 1NT or 2/1 response from partner, so if you open most 11s in 1st+2nd you probably want a 15-17 NT in 3rd+4th (so you'll have a maximum of 24 points for playing a part-score), if you pass many 11s in 1st+2nd seat you'll probably want a 14-16 NT in 3rd+4th.

[dogsbreath]

hi..

 

The only time i played in a USA tourney (Hawaii 1982) we had opps call the TD early on .. we were barred from playing variable 1nt (12/14 or 15/17 according to vul) AND from varying our 1nt range according to position ... from the replies above i guess those restrictions have been relaxed ??

 

Rgds Dog

[kenrexford]

It is a relief to me that the 14-16, 14-16, 15-17, 15-17 scheme, in concert with balanced 11's opened, is somewhat mainstream. I was told that this is insane.

 

On a related note, with Axxx-Jxxx-Kx-AKQ, playing matchpoints, what do you open? Being an IMP-preference bidder, I would normally open 1NT. However, my reading has suggested that 1C might be best, followed by 2NT if partner bids 1D or 1NT. The resulting contract in practice was 2NT, +180, when partner held a trashy 7-count and responded 1NT. I was also chastised for this opening and rebid. Is this auction (1) insane, (2) plausible according to style, or (3) theoretically best?

[cherdano]

On a related note, with Axxx-Jxxx-Kx-AKQ, playing matchpoints, what do you open? Being an IMP-preference bidder, I would normally open 1NT. However, my reading has suggested that 1C might be best, followed by 2NT if partner bids 1D or 1NT. The resulting contract in practice was 2NT, +180, when partner held a trashy 7-count and responded 1NT. I was also chastised for this opening and rebid. Is this auction (1) insane, (2) plausible according to style, or (3) theoretically best?

I won't judge sanity, but it would never occur to me to open this hand with anything else but 1N (assuming 15-17).

[MickyB]

It wouldn't occur to me to open anything else playing a 14-16 NT. But then I do seem to downgrade more than upgrade these days (I think I just like to be different).

 

What did partner expect for 2NT, 17-18? It would have to be a pretty trashy 7 count before I wouldn't raise to 3NT.

[inquiry]

I am not going to espouse expert theory on this subject, because experts play all different way for all different reasons. I will say, however, what I play currently.

• 1st and 2nd seat, all vul 14-16 hcp
  
• 3rd seat not vul. 14-16
  
• 3rd seat vul 15-17
  
• 4th Seat, all vul 15-17
  

Let me try to explain why. In fourth chair, my personal experience suggested the balanced 1NT with 14 hcp was not working for me. In partnerships we open very light, so if partner was a passed hand, the protection and bidding accuracy of a higher range 1NT was good thing. But this doesn't work so well for 3rd seat openings not vul. The reason being when you average in tatical bids, we open EVEN lighter in third seat (most especially non-vul) so we stick with the normal 14-16 range non-vul. When we hold 13 or less the odds of us having game (due to our very light opening bids) is greatly reduced, so 1m-1any-1NT is most often the end of the auction.

 

The 4th seat thing, well. no real need to preempt the opponents with the lighter NT range, and on real need to open very light, so our minimum opening hand is sounder. Thus, the 1NT range can be upped. That is 1m-1any-1NT will never be extremely weak, so adding a 14th point to that at the top range is not bad, because the fewest I can hold is "higher" after a 4th seat one of a minor.

 

What does BridgeBrowser say about opening 1NT in 4th seat with 14, 15, 16 and 17 hcp? Bridgebrowser suggest opening 1NT on 14 hcp is a great thing to do (but the population of players tested do not open as light as I do, so for me. this data is not a valid comparison). This is an easy search function, combining three search tabs: 1) Bidding tab -- choose specify exact seat, set first three bids to pass, set fourth seat distribtion to 4333, 4432, or 5332, then enable this tab as an auxillary term. 2) Bid analysis tab - enable as auxiallary term, 3) Bid Shape tab - give 4th seat 14 to 17 hcp, and 4333 to 5332 pattern (this will include 4441 but the bidding tab settign will exclude these from results). Then press search.

• Fourth Seat 1NT Opening bids holding
  
• 14hcp = +0.44 imp, 53.38 MP
  
• 15 hcp = +0.26 imps, 50.84 MP
  
• 16 hcp = +0.23 imps, 52.46 MP
  
• 17 hcp = +0.42 imps. 51.59 MP
  

This data was taken from every tournament and team game played on BBO during the month of January 2006 that the fourth hand opened 1Nt. Not shown was the effect of some other opening bid for each point count. But suffice it to say, open 1NT with balanced 14 was a clear winner in the long run, but for comparison purposes, I share the results of all one level opening bids (in the data above, opener could have a five card major, in the data below, he could not have a five card major, so the opening 1M are on four card suit -- note the improvement in the 1NT opening bid imp score).

• P-P-P-? BBO Jan, 4th hand 4333 4432 or 5332 with five card minor
  
• 1♣ = 2033 times, = 0.00 Imps, 1100 times = 50.66 MP
  
• 1♦ = 1474 times = -0.19 Imps, 722 times = 50.72 MP
  
• 1♥ = 26 times = 0.68Imps, 9 times = 63.28MP
  
• 1♠ = 12 times = +0.18 Imps, 10 = 36.34 MP
  
• 1♣ = 564 times =+0.40 Imps, 236 times = 52.77 MP
  

So the data suggest, opening 1NT with balanced 14 is clear winner over 1♣ or 1♦.There were too few 1M openings on four card suit to draw a conclusion.

[mike777]

We play 14-16 in first/second but switch to 15-17 in third/fourth. The reason for this is that we open most balanced 11 counts, so the chances of game with a 14 HCP in 3rd seat is small compared to the danger of getting too high.

 

The Hackett clan (papa & the twins) use the same method.

 

Paul

I am a bit surprised this is not the standard model for us 14-16 players. (see Ben)

[joshs]

hi..

 

The only time i played in a USA tourney (Hawaii 1982) we had opps call the TD early on .. we were barred from playing variable 1nt (12/14 or 15/17 according to vul) AND from varying our 1nt range according to position ... from the replies above i guess those restrictions have been relaxed ??

 

Rgds Dog

I had no idea that there once was such restrictions. There are some restrictions about playing multiple systems in some events but there are not about multiple NT ranges, at least not these days.

 

In my most regular partnership I play 4 different ranges:

10-13 1/2 NV

13-15 1/2 VUL

12-15 3/4 NV

15-17 3/4 VUL

 

If you open 10 count's in 1/2 you really should open sounder in 3/4.

 

Many strong club players play 14-16 1-3, and 15-17 in 4'th. For constructive bidding, they are better off playing 15-17 in 3'rd (partner has at most a 10 count, so the 12-14's don't want to be in game unless a good fit emerges). But most keep their 14-16 range in 3'rd seat anyway for pre-emptive reasons even if its slightly sub-optimal for constructive auctions.

[pbleighton]

"If you open 10 count's in 1/2 you really should open sounder in 3/4."

 

I play 10-13 1-3 all vuls, and 14-17 in the 4th. You are right, we really "should" play 14-17 in the 3rd.. :)

 

Peter

[jdeegan]

:) I can pass on one fact from experience: opening a 10-12 HCP NT opposite a passed hand is murder. The opponents know its either their hand or a 50-50 HCP split. Opening 11-14 HCP a la K-S or Acol seems a little safer, but still a little dangerous.

 

So, I can sort of back in to how to answer your question. Stronger NT openers in third or fourth seat make sense to me. What one does first and second seat is what it is.

[luke warm]

i prefer 12-14/15 all the time, but i have no clue whether this is a winner or not, in the long run...

[Cascade]

I play and really like:

 

11+ - 14 in 1st and 2nd

 

15-17 in 3rd and 4th

 

We did this so that our 1NT structure was meaningful over a 3rd and 4th seat opener.

 

If you have a structure that is aimed at bidding game then that is redundant when partner has passed and you have a weak hand.

 

The alternative to playing a different range is to play a different structure over 3rd and 4th seat openers that is more aimed at finding the best part-score.

 

We lose the pre-emptive effect of opening a weak 1NT especially in 3rd seat but we get some of this back and perhaps more by opening 4-card Majors much more often in 3rd/4th seat. When you have a weak NT in 3rd/4th seat then the hand is much more likely to be a part-score hand so it is good to be able to bid your suits. In fact our whole structure after a 3rd/4th seat opening is changed to increase the accuracy in bidding part-scores. In particular a 2/1 is NF. Maybe everyone plays 2/1 as NF by a passed hand but for us they show a six-card suit and around 6-9 hcp.

[david_c]

It wouldn't occur to me to open anything else playing a 14-16 NT. But then I do seem to downgrade more than upgrade these days (I think I just like to be different).

I think you're feeling the upwards pressure from 17-counts. If you were playing a 15-17 NT you would instead be feeling downwards pressure from 14-counts.