the hog Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 AJTxKQAKTQT8x KxAJxJxxAJ9xx 6N, no opposition bidding. Yes please don't bother telling me 6C is cold.H lead, C hook loses. My line was then to win the H return ,cash AK of D and play for a pointed suit squeeze which did not eventuate. The D hook would have worked. I know this is a reasonable line, but is it the optimum line? My maths is not good enough to work it out. RonPS this cost a heap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 I think I'd cash only HJ, DA, and run some Clubs. If west discards Spades, I'd make the D finesse, if he discards D I'd make the Spade finesse. But I'm also not sure if this is the best way... Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 perhaps u can deduce sth from the lead and defense strategy? also, i think cashing da, and sak better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 AJTxKQAKTQT8x KxAJxJxxAJ9xx 6N, no opposition bidding. Yes please don't bother telling me 6C is cold.H lead, C hook loses. My line was then to win the H return ,cash AK of D and play for a pointed suit squeeze which did not eventuate. The D hook would have worked. I know this is a reasonable line, but is it the optimum line? My maths is not good enough to work it out. RonPS this cost a heap! With six cards in both key side suits, cashing AK in one before going for squeeze or hook in the other suit sounds about right. But to play for the squeeze (both queens in the same hand) seems about equal with just picking a suit to hook in. By this I mean the hand with the diamond Queen (for instance) has roughly a 50-50 chance to also hold the spade queen. The odds are affected a little by known cards/distribution. For instance if you were to discover that West held 3C and 6 hearts. If he held the diamond Queen, the odds are actually a lot less than 50% that he also holds the spade queen. So I would like to see what you discovered about the distributions when you cashed five clubs, 1D, and 3 hearts before deciding how to continue. But I doubt the squeeze is ever better than just guessing a suit to hook and doing it. As an aside, what heart did West lead? Restricted choice can apply to opening bids. West with something useful in one suit, might choose to lead from a suit with nothing in it. Thus, the heart lead might suggest that he has something in another suit. So, cashing two honors in one suit and hooking in the other seems better than playing simply for the squeeze. If West has something in both side suits this line works, as does the squeeze, if he doesn't you have the chance of dropping Qx first then the hook. I would trhy to figure out which side suit West is longest in (through play on clubs), and then cash winners in other side suit, then hook west for the Queen in the suit I think he is longest in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 The lead was the T of H So I would like to see what you discovered about the distributions when you cashed five clubs, 1D, and 3 hearts before deciding how to continue. But I doubt the squeeze is ever better than just guessing a suit to hook and doing it. C are 2-2, West pitches 2 Hearts and the D 3. East pitches 2 S, (the 4 and the 5 to be exact), and the 9 D - she played the 2 when you cashed the D A first. If it helps, West is a strong player and East a weak client Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 How did the play go on the three round of hearts? If EAST is client, they tend to signal religiously to their pro. Are they playing UDCA so diamond 29 looks like doubleton? The spade discards look like from five card suit, maybe six card suit, but not clear. Let's assume everyone followed to three hearts.. .here is what we know. West 5H, East 3West 2C, East 2 Assume East showed out on third heart, then west 6H and east 2. Either way, our task of which suit to hook becomes a little easier. Since clients always discard fromlegnth (well, always a little stong). In case one, I play East for 6-3-2-3. or perhaps 5-3-3-2. Either way, I think the odds favor hooking West for diamond queen (better odds to cross to dummy and hook spade, but too late for that now. If West had 6 hearts and 2C, you can't squeeze him as he can;t have stoppers in both suits. East being 2-2 in clubs and hearts in this case, probably clearly probalby shows 5-4 with these discards. Now it is close, but I think I play for the vienna coup squeeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 east is 5242, west is 2632.. seems to me like spade finesse is 5:2 against, diamond hook is 4:3 against.. if i had to chose one suit i guess it'd be diamonds if that dist is correct, i think i'd go with the diamnd hook.. but i might be wrong on all counts :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 east is 5242, west is 2632.. seems to me like spade finesse is 5:2 against, diamond hook is 4:3 against.. if i had to chose one suit i guess it'd be diamonds if that dist is correct, i think i'd go with the diamnd hook.. but i might be wrong on all counts :P This is why if WEST has 6HEARTS I play for the squeeze instead of the hook if I think EAST has only 5 spades. East must have one of the queens (or doubleton) and has more cards in the other suit, making squeeze slightly better chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Full hands AJTx KQ AKT QT8x xx QxxxxT9xxx xxxQxxx xxxKx xx Kx AJx Jxx AJ9xx D hook would have worked. Re signalling, don't thik you can draw too much inference there; client has apparently been told to keep them to a minimum!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Re signalling, don't thik you can draw too much inference there; client has apparently been told to keep them to a minimum!! Five hearts with WEST, east throws two spades, hook diamonds.. seems easy, cash SACE then spade king first, odds slighlty or greatly better for diamond hook as seems west has 4 or 5 diamonds on the discards. ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 I gave this problem to GIB. It's line was Heart KingClub finesse losingtake Heart returncash second club ending in handcash third heart discarding spadetake diamond Acediamond Kingrun spade Jackclaim So GIB doesn't run the clubs! Whether this line is technically any good, I can't say. But it does have the benefit of working. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 That's the problem with Gib, as that is definitely a double dummy line.On reflection, I agree that D hook is best. Just one in a long line of disaters this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 That's the problem with Gib, as that is definitely a double dummy line.On reflection, I agree that D hook is best. Just one in a long line of disaters this weekend. What do you mean by "a double dummy line" in this context? Obviously if GIB knew the location of the cards (which is what I understand by double dummy) it would simply finesse the Diamond Queen. I suspect that if you gave West Qx in spades then GIB would go down i.e. definitely not take a double dummy line. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Well why take the S hook rather than the D hook, EricK? Makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Well why take the S hook rather than the D hook, EricK? Makes no sense to me. My guess at GIB's "reasoning" is that if you place West with long hearts, then any finesse through East is better than a finesse throught West. Since the Spade finesse can be taken through East, but the Diamond finesse can't then GIB goes for the spade finesse. He correctly cashes two diamonds first in case the Queen is dropping. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 east is 5242, west is 2632.. seems to me like spade finesse is 5:2 against, diamond hook is 4:3 against.. if i had to chose one suit i guess it'd be diamonds if that dist is correct, i think i'd go with the diamnd hook.. but i might be wrong on all counts :P This is why if WEST has 6HEARTS I play for the squeeze instead of the hook if I think EAST has only 5 spades. East must have one of the queens (or doubleton) and has more cards in the other suit, making squeeze slightly better chance. i don't see the squeeze... are you playing for something like: A,J-J- x-10x see, east would need <both> queens (unless i'm missing something).. if he has SQ twice only, he just throws a diamond on the JD.. maybe i have a blind spot but i just don't see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 i don't see the squeeze... are you playing for something like: If West has six hearts and 2 clubs. He can have at most 2 cards in one of the other two suits. So you play a vienna coupe. Cash both diamonds honors, then run your winners... the position would be something like this when you cash your last club... AJ -- T -- Qx -- Q x -- -- J Q When you cash the last club, throw diamond ten from dummy. East has a useless choice. If he throws away the Diamond JACK, if he throws a spade, you cash both spades in dummy starting with the ACE. This is the line Ron said he played for. If West has six hearts, it is the line I would play for too. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Being east a client the hand is laydown. Play a heart to dummy and call the sJ, even if he doesn't cover he will consider or think about it if he has the queen. If he plays low quickly just overtake with the king and finesse the pro for the sQ. Piece of cake ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Euhm Luis, if you play that way against me at the table, you will lose your contract! If you see dummy, you should already know what you will play if opponents play any card... So I won't have to consider weither or not to play the queen if you play SJ after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 If West has six hearts and 2 clubs. He can have at most 2 cards in one of the other two suits. So you play a vienna coupe. Cash both diamonds honors, then run your winners... the position would be something like this when you cash your last club... AJ -- T -- Qx -- Q x -- -- J Q When you cash the last club, throw diamond ten from dummy. East has a useless choice. If he throws away the Diamond JACK, if he throws a spade, you cash both spades in dummy starting with the ACE. This is the line Ron said he played for. If West has six hearts, it is the line I would play for too. Ben ok, this is what i was alluding to.. east would need both queens for a squeeze to work.. that's what i meant, and i really don't know what the odds are of east holding both queens compared to the (given the 'squeeze' dist) diamond hook.. i would believe at the table that west has 6 hearts as the hand is played, so if i had to choose i'd probably go for the squeeze also.. who knows, i might win a beer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 ok, this is what i was alluding to.. east would need both queens for a squeeze to work.. that's what i meant, and i really don't know what the odds are of east holding both queens compared to the (given the 'squeeze' dist) diamond hook.. i would believe at the table that west has 6 hearts as the hand is played, so if i had to choose i'd probably go for the squeeze also.. who knows, i might win a beer My point was that if WEST had 6 HEARTS (east shows out on the third round) and West had 2 clubs, that is 8 of his cards. A priori he can not protect at least one of the other suits, as he can not have three to the Queen in both side suits, simply because he has to be something like 2-6-3-2 or 3-6-2-2 1-6-4-2 4-6-1-3 0-6-5-2 5-6-0-3 I think the spade discards by rightee eliminate the with WEST being short in diamonds. So I would guess IF west has 6 hearts, that the distribution is 2-6-3-2 or 1-6-4-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 I don't understand the point of the GIB line. But as soon as you discover, while running the clubs, that West had 5 hearts -- isn't it then clearly best odds to cross to dummy and take the spade finesse by running the J (after cashing the top diamonds, testing for queen doubleton). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 That's the problem with Gib, as that is definitely a double dummy line.On reflection, I agree that D hook is best. Just one in a long line of disaters this weekend.I agree with that, I can play very good when I know what Gib knows hehe, but since I don't. I think I'll cash D ace play clubs and see what's going on. Maybe opps drop Q on the ground, from shaking in fear to play against me hehehe. Otherwise I'll flip a coin or come up with some other excuse when I misplay. Mike ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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