Bidding Problems From Last Night

[joshs]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=saqh9xxxdkxxxcjxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

LHO Opens 1N(15-17), Partner (Me) bids 2C (majors), RHO passes, Are you worth an Invite?

In our methods, our INV sequences with a 3+ card major, start with 2D. Do you bid 2D (asking for the better major) or just 2H?

 

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=saqh9xxxdkxxxcjxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

You Open 1S (10-14ish), LHO overcalls 2D, Partner bids 3S (pre-emptive), RHO makes a responsive x-?

Do you bid 4S? How much do you think you go down if xed? Do you care about that?

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=saqh9xxxdkxxxcjxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Partner opens 1D (13-15 Bal Or 10-14 <6 C and <5 in M)

RHO bids 3S

You?

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=saqh9xxxdkxxxcjxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Partner opens 2H (Good 8- Bad 12, 6 or 7 hearts)

RHO bids 2S

LHO bids 3S

RHO bids 4S

Do you x?

[Guest Jlall]

1) Much depends on style. I would just bid 2H, I'm used to agressive bidding with appropriate hands over 1N openers.

 

2) 4S. I'll assume partners preempts are sane at this vul, so I think 4S might make opposite the right hand, or may induce a 5D call. I would expect to go down 1 usually.

 

3) 4S. Nightmare hand for the methods, I'm just going to shoot out a slam and try and get to the right minor suit fit and give up on hearts. If I bid 5N next partner will know to bid diamonds with equal minor suit length.

 

4) pass. X is too speculative, I only have 1 trick and I'm on lead.

[luis]

1) Yes I think this is worth an invite, but If I have to invite.

 

2) I bid 4♠ I expect to be down 1 but I don't think they can double 4♠

 

3) Over 3♠ I bid 4♥

 

4) Double? Not even drunk I would double 4♠

 

Luis

[han]

1) I want partner to bid 2C very often, so I would just bid 2H. Trying for game doesn't even cross my mind.

 

2) I would bid 4S. Partner should have a decent hand at these colors, I expect something like J10xx xx xxx Axxx. Here 4S is off one and 4H is laydown. It is possible that we go down 2, or that they don;t have a game. It is also possible that 4S makes. The third possibility (that they guess wrongly over 4S) makes me think that 4S directly is the winning bid.

 

3) Anybody for switch here, 4C showing hearts? Without this gadget the hand is very tough, I think I would bid 4H. If partner has nothing wasted in spades then they will likely bid 4S and I'd get another bid. If partner does have stuff in spades then slam is unlikely.

 

4) I know I wouldn't at the table, but that doesn't say much. I don't think that it is likely that they go down more than one.

[pbleighton]

2H. This really depends on what strength 2C promises.

 

4S.

 

4H.

 

Pass.

 

 

Peter

[mike777]

3) 4s

 

using FTL I think we have 25 working hcp.

13-3+2=12 tricks.

13=total tricks

-3=combined two shortest suits

+2=assume 25 working hcp.

[pclayton]

1. 2♥ I hope there is a way to show a good 5-5 in the majors instead of 2♣. I also hope I made my 2♥ call in tempo, so if pard does have a good hand he can take another call.

 

2. 4♠. I really don't expect to get whacked; and I so, I only expect to go down 1. Partners that make preemptive jump raises on 4 trump and out at these colors should be taken out and SHOT. I think I have a right to expect: Jxxx, xx, xxx, Axxx at a minimum these colors.

 

3. 4♥. What a bear! If I'm comitting this hand to slam, I'll try an immediate 5N and convert 6♣ to 6♦. I really don't see what 4♠ accomplishes. Whatever pard bids, I really won't know what to do anyway. Guess I'll just stay fixed.

 

4. Josh, are you playing the Trent-style weak 2's? If so, pard guarantees an outside trick. Its hard to see where their source of tricks is, but its tough to see how we can take ours as well. Against weak players I'll double, but against someone decent, I'll just pass.

[joshs]

1. 2♥ I hope there is a way to show a good 5-5 in the majors instead of 2♣. I also hope I made my 2♥ call in tempo, so if pard does have a good hand he can take another call.

 

2. 4♠. I really don't expect to get whacked; and I so, I only expect to go down 1. Partners that make preemptive jump raises on 4 trump and out at these colors should be taken out and SHOT. I think I have a right to expect: Jxxx, xx, xxx, Axxx at a minimum these colors.

 

3. 4♥. What a bear! If I'm comitting this hand to slam, I'll try an immediate 5N and convert 6♣ to 6♦. I really don't see what 4♠ accomplishes. Whatever pard bids, I really won't know what to do anyway. Guess I'll just stay fixed.

 

4. Josh, are you playing the Trent-style weak 2's? If so, pard guarantees an outside trick. Its hard to see where their source of tricks is, but its tough to see how we can take ours as well. Against weak players I'll double, but against someone decent, I'll just pass.

We play my usual: Light Style Intermediate 2's (more or less the same as trent 2's without any strict suit quality requirements [upgrade hands with strong primary suits, downgrade with weak primary suits])) with a multi 2D for the Bad weak 2's.

 

Essentially, a 2M opening is a maximum standard weak 2 (without side shape limitations) or a minimum opening 1 bid. This way 1M-1N-2M shows extras. The main reason I like playing this way is that the 2M opening is very frequent (the majority of bridge hands fall into the 8-12 HCP range), its hard to bid over (since it promises real values) and leaves partner well placed (at least based on point count, although you need some mechanisms for finding out his shape)

[Sigi_BC84]

Essentially, a 2M opening is a maximum standard weak 2 (without side shape limitations) or a minimum opening 1 bid. This way 1M-1N-2M shows extras. The main reason I like playing this way is that the 2M opening is very frequent (the majority of bridge hands fall into the 8-12 HCP range), its hard to bid over (since it promises real values) and leaves partner well placed (at least based on point count, although you need some mechanisms for finding out his shape)

This looks somewhat similar to the Fantunes two-openers.

 

Do you have many swings after opening 2M (i.e. how high is your variance)? What does happen more often: missing a game/slam or going for a number?

 

Do you ever open with a 5M on the two-level? What is the system in 3rd hand?

 

--Sigi

[joshs]

Hand 1: Partner bid 2H after tanking, but I didn't really think it was that close. Move the DK into hearts, and then I make a game try.

 

Incidently, I made a particularly sick bid, bidding 2C on T9xxx QJxx Jx AQ since I was NV. But having said that I think T9xxx QJxx x AQx is a clear 2C bid NV. Hands with a singleton should strain to bid over 1N (if you have a reasonable bid in your methods and you have appropriate suit quality/shape, given the vul) where your singleton becomes an asset not a liability.

 

Hand 2: I passed like a wimp at these colors, being scared off by my 3 small heart in an auction where partner is likely to have at least 2 and probably 3 hearts. I don't know what's right. In this case, partner had a 5'th spade, but an absolute dog: xxxxx xxx Qx Qxx and we were going for 800 in 4S-x if they bothered to hit it. They happened to be making 6D (but only bid 5) do to the C9 and CT, but its hard to bid it. I am really not sure what is correct here...

 

Hand 3: I need to improve my methods here and play 4S followed by 5H as a slam force with hearts, with interest in playing some contract other than 6H (maybe 6m, maybe 7H). Lacking any good methods, I bid an INV 5H, which partner raised to 6 on QT9 Kxxx x AKT9x. I made 7 on the club hook, but was happy to be in 6H.

 

Hand 4: I wacked it, and it went for 1400 (it should have only gone for 1100 but declarer went crazy). It was easy for me to x, since RHO hitched before bidding 4S (he didn't have his bid). Dummy came down with a 12 count and he still was in trouble...

 

Partner had: T Axxxxx xxxx AQ and the club K was in dummy, and the KQ of spades were in declarer's hand, and I found the club lead....

 

I like xing games at imps, when they have marginal values, and no clear place for the tricks to be coming from. But this hand was very very close without the hitch. As the card lie its 1100 on a club lead, 800 on a diamond lead if I switch to clubs next, and 500 if I mess up badly...

[joshs]

Essentially, a 2M opening is a maximum standard weak 2 (without side shape limitations) or a minimum opening 1 bid. This way 1M-1N-2M shows extras. The main reason I like playing this way is that the 2M opening is very frequent (the majority of bridge hands fall into the 8-12 HCP range), its hard to bid over (since it promises real values) and leaves partner well placed (at least based on point count, although you need some mechanisms for finding out his shape)

This looks somewhat similar to the Fantunes two-openers.

 

Do you have many swings after opening 2M (i.e. how high is your variance)? What does happen more often: missing a game/slam or going for a number?

 

Do you ever open with a 5M on the two-level? What is the system in 3rd hand?

 

--Sigi

Yeah, its similar to fantunes 2M openers, except it promises a 6'th card. We never make these bids with 5 cards. Seamon and Passell used to play a heavier version (12-15), played 1M then 2M as 16-18, and 1M then 3M as forcing (so no need for the fake jump shifts). Greco-Hampson play (or played) something similar to what I play. Or maybe they just did it in spades, I can't remember exactly (they used to play 2D multi, 2H 3 suiter short in diamonds, and so I think there intermediate 2 is just in spades).

 

When a playing Standard system, I play the same in 3'rd and 4'th (except 2D is intermediate 2 in diamonds in 4'th).

 

When I play strong club josh-style, the 2 bids are slightly heavier 3'rd and 4'th (but again 2D is intermediate with diamonds in 4'th seat).

 

Essentially "strong club josh-style" is:

Limited opening bids that are 1-2 points lighter than standard in 1'st and second. (1M is 10-14 or 10-15 or 11-15 ish depending on the system).

In 3'rd and 4'th seat all bids (including the strong club) become 2 points heavier than in 1/2. If you open 10-11 counts first and second, you don't miss much by passing them in 3'rd and 4'th.

 

The style (song?) remains the same, regardless of what strong club system I play.

 

I don't like playing systems where the 3'rd - 4'th seat 1C bid is usually a x-fer to 1D (because partner rarely has an INV hand) and where there are essentially no INV sequences over the limited opening bids. That always striked me as very inefficient.

[joshs]

I don't like playing systems where the 3'rd - 4'th seat 1C bid is usually a x-fer to 1D (because partner rarely has an INV hand) and where there are essentially no INV sequences over the limited opening bids. That always striked me as very inefficient.

I, of course, meant "because partner rarely has a GFing hand".

[Sigi_BC84]

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question about the general performance of these openers (swings)? I'd be very interested to hear.

--Sigi

[joshs]

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question about the general performance of these openers (swings)? I'd be very interested to hear.

--Sigi

Sorry, I forgot about that question. The 2M opener has been a big winner for me, but it does introduce some extra variance because the auction is accelerated.

 

From the Albuquerque Regional, we generated 3 positive swings with no losses. Slam bidding is slightly harder over them than over 1M (when I would have opened that) but easier than when I would have opened 2M.

 

Our swings were all of different sorts:

a. One auction went 2S-(3H) and I was able to bid game on my 15 count with 2344 shape at both red. At the other table it also went 2S(weak 2)-3H and they elected to x 3H on Qxx which only went down 1 (he had 7 hearts). That probably was a bad decision in any case, but it was easier at my table.

 

b. One auction went 2H-(2S) at all red and I bid 3H (competative) on a 2254 8 count with Ax of spades and 2 small hearts, and the next player had 3 spades and a 7 count and elected to raise. They went down 2 on good defense from us. At the other table the auction went

1H-(1S)-x-(2S)-3H(He had 6 solid) -All Pass 3H went down 1. 7 IMPS to the good guys.

 

c. I can't remember the details of the 3'rd hand, but it was like the other nights hand, where I got a good penalty against them that I would never have gotten with a standard weak 2.

[joshs]

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question about the general performance of these openers (swings)? I'd be very interested to hear.

--Sigi

BTW, in one system I play 2M as 5 in M, 4+ in a minor and 10-15ish.

 

While the narrower range 6 card intermediate 2's are clear winners (maybe 0.75IMPS/bd? I am just guessing, I need to compile some data), this bid is not. It has ultra high variance and is probably a 0.25IMPs/bd loser over opening the hand 1M (has problems when responder has a singleton in M and we play 3m instead of 2m or when responder has a misfitting game invite where we end up in 3N and standard bidders would end up in 2N or 3N depending on the exact combined strength). I use it because it fills a hole in that system (canape) that makes the 1M openers big winners, despite the small losses from this bid.

 

I suspect that the Fantunes openers are slight losers (but less than my 5 card intermediate 2's because they use a narrower range) with high variance, but again less variance than my wider range bids. There main benfit is that they make the 1 level bids winners, and the 2 bids probably lose less than Pass would have on the top end of those bids (I can't know that but since they use them, they must think so)....

[Sigi_BC84]

I suspect that the Fantunes openers are slight losers (but less than my 5 card intermediate 2's because they use a narrower range) with high variance, but again less variance than my wider range bids. There main benfit is that they make the 1 level bids winners, and the 2 bids probably lose less than Pass would have on the top end of those bids (I can't know that but since they use them, they must think so)....

Maybe Luis and/or Gerben can comment on this (since they play a Fantunes derivative).

 

Thank you for the comprehensive answer Josh.

 

--Sigi

[luis]

I suspect that the Fantunes openers are slight losers (but  less than my 5 card intermediate 2's because they use a narrower range) with high variance, but again less variance than my wider range bids. There main benfit is that they make the 1 level bids winners, and the 2 bids probably lose less than Pass would have on the top end of those bids (I can't know that but since they use them, they must think so)....

Maybe Luis and/or Gerben can comment on this (since they play a Fantunes derivative).

 

Thank you for the comprehensive answer Josh.

 

--Sigi

I've been playing 2x as 9-13 unbalanced with 5+ cards for about 2 years and a half.

 

It's very very hard to evaluate how the openings result without a lot of subjective factors.

 

From my experience my comments are:

 

My best advice is:

It's better to overbid than to make a conservative pass over 2x, if you have a "chance" at game then you should bid, sometimes you will end down 1 in 3x or 3NT or some game but defense is hard and some bad games are made while you reach all the good ones.

 

We went for a number twice but they went for a number too after overbidding over a 2x opening in a missfit, hands where you open 2M and they overcall 3m with an average hand are potentially great for your side.

From the 2 times we went for a number one was my fault because I opened a bad 9 count vulnerable and that is not mandatory they found a takeout double and the suit was 5-1 so bad luck yes but my bid was horrible too.

 

The worst side of 2x is that since you start high sometimes it's hard to find the best game or slam for your side. For example pd opens 2♥ 9-13 and I got last week:

 

AKxx

-

AJxx

AKQxx

 

Some layouts produce 3NT only, in others you are cold in 7♣ and you can bet you can't find out. In this case I asked and when pd showed hearts only I made the healthy bid of 3NT which was the only makeable thing in the hand.

 

My conclusion is that the openings are good, I like them, you have to be in overbid mode and you have to simplify auctions where you can't find the perfect cards you need for a slam or grand.

 

Luis