An interesting hand where they just bid your suit

[luis]

From a training match yesterday:

 

#1:

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=skqjtxhaxxdakxcqx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

LHO opens 1♥, pass by pd, 1♠ by RHO

What do you do ?

If you decide to pass opener rebids 2♥ pass pass to you

[awm]

I bid 2♠ (natural) over 1♠. Sometimes the one spade bid is a psych, other times a weak four-card suit. In any case, I have the goods to make 7 tricks in 2♠ basically in my hand, so I'm not real afraid of being penalized.

 

Admittedly a 2♠ call in this auction is often based on a somewhat weaker hand with a sixth spade, but KQJTx is a very strong holding and the playing strength here is not that different (for offense at least) since the extra ace compensates for the missing spade.

[cherdano]

I also bid 2♠. Since the reason to bid 2♠ should always be fear of missing a game, I think it should always show a good hand -- of course not that good, but I hope partner will find a raise when we have game.

 

Arend

[mike777]

2s

[kenrexford]

Add unanimity with another 2S call. I dislike my Qx of clubs, so other stronger options are out for a second, to the practical. I may get aggressive later.

[Guest Jlall]

2S for me as well. Harder problem without the ST.

[whereagles]

2♠ 1st round, possibly followed by double 2nd round.

[luis]

If you bid 2♠ it goes 3♥ pass pass

Do you do something now? What?

[awm]

I'd pass 3♥. Bidding 3♠ seems kind of crazy on only five, and double should be takeout-oriented. Even if double were penalty (or cards), we're pretty far from setting 3♥ given the likely spade shortness in LHO's hand.

 

It's possible that partner could have some strength and we could be making 3NT, especially the way people open, respond, and make 3-level freebids on air these days. But it's just as possible that 3NT is going down a lot when partner has next to nothing. I'll play it safe and pass.

[civill]

I'll not pass at the 1st round,but may at the 2nd .

[mikeh]

The BW posed the problem (in the MasterSolvers Club) as to the meaning of a 2♠ call over this type of 1-level auction and it appeared that the expert panel was divided on the type of hand shown. Some of them, including some very impressive names, felt that 2♠ showed almost nothing other then a decent 6+ suit: ie KJ109xx Ax xxx xx would be more than enough for the bid, while others were (I think) more traditional in their approach and considered that the bid showed opening hand values as well as a decent suit.

 

I point this out because this hand is far more than partner will expect if you belong to the first school, and is a big hand even in the context of a traditional bid.

 

I have been seduced by the first approach, but since none of my partners yet agree with me, I am happy that on this hand I can bid 2♠. The other choice is a slightly heavy 1N (which is natural for me: I used to play takeout, but realized that I was getting pushed around way too much.... I would revert to sandwich only if playing against mike777 and his partners, who always have their values, and some of mine :P ) If my ♥ were A10x, I'd double the first time and them bid notrump, but Axx is a trifle too thin for my taste.

 

After 3♥ P P, I go quietly but reluctantly.

[Kalvan14]

2♠ at 1st round, no doubt. When 3♥ comes back, unfortunately I've to pass: too many losers for pard to fill

[Miron]

1♥ - p - 1♠ - 2♠

3♥ - p - p - ?

 

Opener = 12+(15) HCP, (6)7 ♥, (1)2♠

Responder = 5 HCP, 4♠

I = 19 HCP, 5♠ & 3♥

Partner = -4(1) HCP, 2(3)♠, 1.5♥

 

3♠: I'll make ♥A and ♥ ruff (a bit optimistic), ♦AK, maybe some ♣, I can count only 3♠ (I was already optimistic at ♥, cannot be twice). 7+ tricks. That's about 2 down for 500 (maybe just 1 for 200).

3♥x: max 1♠, 1♥, 2♦, maybe one more ♣ or ♦. 3 tricks, probably 4. No double :)

 

I'll pass (and expect opps to fulfil), too risky to bid.

[luis]

Thanks for all the answers.

I posted this hand because an interesting debate emerged in the analysis after the match. In particular I don't like the 2♠ bit at all but since many good players here bid it maybe I have something to learn, my argumentation against 2♠ is that with a very strong hand and only 5♠ the only thing that 2♠ can achieve is a trump control battle to reach +110, I really don't think it's worth the effort. And the big problem is that they might be stealing this hand in front of your noses, the vulnerability and your cards are in my view a big warning sign. The call I prefer is a natural 1NT, which in that position should be 16-18 balanced with the specific purpose of preventing a steal, you are bit heavy for that but if the opponents are stealing and pd can make a move over 1NT you know you have a shot in 3NT.

As the cards lie 3NT was cold, opener had QJ9xxxx of hearts, the club ace and a spade void. Responder Ace sixth of spades and out. That was an unlucky coincidence, true but don't you think you have to find a way to protect your side against this ? It's becoming very common in modern bridge.

 

Luis

[cherdano]

Luis, so partner had ♠xx and 7 points in the minors? In that case, I think the problem was this pair had no agreement about what 2♠ shows. If 2♠ is a strong bid (which I assumed), then partner should act over 3♥ IMO. If 2♠ is just a competitive bid, then certainly it's wrong on this hand.

 

Arend

[luis]

Luis, so partner had ♠xx and 7 points in the minors? In that case, I think the problem was this pair had no agreement about what 2♠ shows. If 2♠ is a strong bid (which I assumed), then partner should act over 3♥ IMO. If 2♠ is just a competitive bid, then certainly it's wrong on this hand.

 

Arend

Well do you have that agreement with your pd?

What do you bid with

 

AQJxxx

x

Axxx

xx

 

After 1♥ - p - 1♠ ?

 

I think that for any pair in the world 2♠ shows a strong spade suit and shape or values to justify bidding a suit that is already breaking badly. But does this mean that you have 19 with 5 spades? I don't think so and I don't think it makes sense to agree that 2♠ is a "strong" hand.

 

Luis

[whereagles]

Does xxxx opposite x rank as "breaking badly"? :unsure:

[Guest Jlall]

My view is that sometimes you just get stolen from. It happens, especially when they bid your suits. I don't think partner should bid over 2S. This could have been avoided with a 1N overcall, and it has a lot of merit, but sometimes there will be cases where you will just get stolen from.

[awm]

I agree with Justin that sometimes you get stolen from.

 

With this said, I might've bid with partner's hand. No, 2♠ does not show a big hand, but it does show a decent hand with a good suit. Small doubleton could well be enough to compete to the three level opposite a strong six card suit, and it's also possible we have a big minor suit fit if overcaller is 6-4 or even 5-4. The high card points are likely to be roughly evenly divided between the sides -- I don't think a 2♠ bid shows a "weak two in spades" in terms of values, although 19 hcp is certainly well above the expectation (I'd say 11-16 or so is normal with a good six-card spade suit or amazing five-carder). Responsive double seems normal here.

[joshs]

I agree with Justin that sometimes you get stolen from.

 

With this said, I might've bid with partner's hand. No, 2♠ does not show a big hand, but it does show a decent hand with a good suit. Small doubleton could well be enough to compete to the three level opposite a strong six card suit, and it's also possible we have a big minor suit fit if overcaller is 6-4 or even 5-4. The high card points are likely to be roughly evenly divided between the sides -- I don't think a 2♠ bid shows a "weak two in spades" in terms of values, although 19 hcp is certainly well above the expectation (I'd say 11-16 or so is normal with a good six-card spade suit or amazing five-carder). Responsive double seems normal here.

Yeah in general the range with a 5 card suit is, of course, heavier than with a six card suit since the bid is

a. less safe

b. lacking a 6'th trump, you have 1 less trick...

 

I made this bid recently on KQ98x and a 15 count and also on AQJxxx and a 12 count. I would have never made the bid on KQ98x and a 12 count...

 

Having a 19 count and one of their suits is really hard. Auctions that begin with x here are really messy if you want to play in the opponents suit. It might not be worth it to include this hand type in x, and just payoof sometimes....

 

One thing to note about this bid, is that even when its a mistake (e.g RHO has a 5 card suit and a reasonable hand) LHO often saves you by re-bidding his 6 card suit. Also, and this is also frequent, the opps miss a fit in the other major when they lack the strength or agreements to get there....Now when LHO makes a support x, you better duck. Do you have an agreement about what x shows after 1m-P-1H-(2H)-?

Penalty? Extra values, takeout? Spades?

[Guest Jlall]

Responsive double seems normal here.

Do we even know partners hand here? I missed it if we do. If we are referring to his "minor suit length, xx of spades" then I think a responsive X at the 3 level is way too rich with just 7 points. It is also a "law violation" (lol).

[han]

The BW posed the problem (in the MasterSolvers Club) as to the meaning of a 2♠ call over this type of 1-level auction and it appeared that the expert panel was divided on the type of hand shown. Some of them, including some very impressive names, felt that 2♠ showed almost nothing other then a decent 6+ suit: ie KJ109xx Ax xxx xx would be more than enough for the bid, while others were (I think) more traditional in their approach and considered that the bid showed opening hand values as well as a decent suit.

 

I point this out because this hand is far more than partner will expect if you belong to the first school, and is a big hand even in the context of a traditional bid.

 

I have been seduced by the first approach, but since none of my partners yet agree with me, I am happy that on this hand I can bid 2♠. The other choice is a slightly heavy 1N (which is natural for me: I used to play takeout, but realized that I was getting pushed around way too much.... I would revert to sandwich only if playing against mike777 and his partners, who always have their values, and some of mine :) ) If my ♥ were A10x, I'd double the first time and them bid notrump, but Axx is a trifle too thin for my taste.

 

After 3♥ P P, I go quietly but reluctantly.

I remember reading a discussion about this several years ago. I believe that Cohen and Berkowitz were the editors (or however you call it) of that issue and pointed out that they would bid 2S nonvulnerable on KJxxxx and out. I don't think that anybody else on the panel said they would bid 2S with that, but clearly many people overcall 2S with less than an opening hand.

 

So if you overcall 2S then partner is not likely to act, and if you pass over any further bidding by the opponents then you basically give up on game. I think I would bid 1NT, and when 2H comes back to me I would bid 2S.

[luis]

I'm not trying to find a way to "not get stolen" but what I really want to know is the merit of a 2♠ call instead of 1NT. With 2♠ they will play 3♥ or you will play in 2♠ with a battle for trump control to get +110 is this any good?

 

And I wonder

If you bid 1NT (natural 16-18 in sandwich)

and it goes

2♥ pass pass

Can you now bid 2♠ and do both things that you wanted to do at once?

 

Luis

[han]

And I wonder

If you bid 1NT (natural 16-18 in sandwich)

and it goes

2♥ pass pass

Can you now bid 2♠ and do both things that you wanted to do at once?

 

Luis

I thought so. (see above)

 

Of course, when you bid 1NT you don't know that you get the chance to bid 2S, and when you do bid 2S you are still underbidding (so they might still steal from you). But I think that you have painted a much better picture.